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120 hours /played till max


Started by Deveron
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So I just finished reading that Gamestar list of known features of TESO and stumbled upon it's last entry:

"Das Levelcap erreicht der durchschnittliche Spieler etwa nach 120 Spielstunden."
"levelcap is reached by the average player after roughly 120h /played."

Now I'm wondering if that isn't a tad bit too fast. And what it might tell us.

For instance, if you can rush to top in a few days, it's a safe bet there won't be any harsh death penalties and certainly no xp loss at death.

I know it's a RvR centric game, but if you already reach endgame in the first quarter of your free time that comes with the box (should they use a sub model, that is) how much more content and meaningful content will there be so you don't burn out on it before you even consider resubbing.

I'm confident they will have a lot more in place than SW:TOR had, but fast leveling speeds always leave a sour taste in my mouth.

What do you think? What will we be doing the second week after release? And how will they manage to keep us entertained for months?
This post was last modified: August 2nd 2012 05:37 AM by Deveron


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Post #178
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120 hours of playtime are just shit tier for any MMORPG.

My big hope is that you can do RvR from level 1 on. I hate leveling. I want CONTENT thats FUN and not leveling for the sake of getting content. If i have to level to get what i want from the game (PvP) i just wont bother and play GW2 where i can get it without putting "work" into the game. Cause i want a Game, and not a job i have to pay for.

But i can see why this is. They got 3 leveling Zones. In other words they cant make a huge ammount of leveling content cause they got it 3 times over wich by the way is a retardet way of aproaching game design.
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120 hours is an extremely short time to be able to hit the level cap. Even if people wanted to play multiple races, it's still really short.

(August 2nd 2012 05:46 AM)Sordak Wrote:  My big hope is that you can do RvR from level 1 on. I hate leveling. I want CONTENT thats FUN and not leveling for the sake of getting content. If i have to level to get what i want from the game (PvP) i just wont bother and play GW2 where i can get it without putting "work" into the game. Cause i want a Game, and not a job i have to pay for.

Maybe I'm just used to it, but I actually don't mind leveling to unlock more content. If 120 hours is all it takes to reach the max level, it especially won't bother me having to level to unlock more content. RvR shouldn't be just for end-game, though. It would probably be best for people to be able to experience it at very low levels, possibly making them want to level to be able to further help their faction.


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Post #195
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I know I will take a week off or two when TESO releases, so there's a good chance of hitting cap in that time and I just don't want to get the feeling of having reached the end of the game again. An MMO never should feel like it's reached it's end.

So here's hoping the RvR and some sandbox features will be there to make it a never ending and dynamic experience. Themeparks tend to have this "The End" feeling, tho. I'm curious how they make the transition from themepark into open gameplay.


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I don't mind hitting level cap in a short time. For me it is not about how fast I can reach "endgame", but rather what you do once you get there.

I want to take a moment to call attention to what Funcom is doing with The Secret World. Every month they are releasing what they refer to as "Issues". If you look at their web site and read the news article announcing "Issue #1: Unleashed," the graphic they show looks like the cover art for a comic book.

I want stick with the comic book angle for a moment. I don't know how many of you are into comic books. I'm not really. But my nephew is. I asked him, "So you buy an issue of your favorite comic series each month. About how long does it take you to read it?"

He says "About fifteen minutes, tops."

I said, "And about how much to you pay per issue?"

He said, "Depending on where I get it, between 4 and 5 dollars."

So I did the math... Issue #1 of The Secret World includes SEVEN new missions. A monthly subscription to TSW is $15.00. Each mission, if you are doing it for the first time and are not following some walkthrough, is bound to take at least 10 minutes if it is short. So Seven missions weighing in at a total of at least 70 minutes at $15.00 is a deal when comparing monthly content of the game to the parallel that Funcom is shooting for with comic books. And the cool thing is that Issue #1 released before the end of TSW's first 30 days of live status. Which means it was a free issue.

I'd like to see ZOS take the same approach with TESO.

It won't matter if you can hit max level in a few days if the first issue of a series of story releases hits before the free trial period ends, and each subsequent issue releases within 30 days of each other.

Now let me deviate from comic books and lean more towards the notion of a magazine publication. A magazine has articles on a variety of topics. Now let's translate that to MMO terms. Imagine PvP scenarios as one topic. Solo-able "personal story" being another topic. "Open World story" as another. Inagine a quest for each playstyle bundled as an "issue"

If I buy People Magazine, I may only buy it for the cover story, or I see that it has an article about a particular person or subject. I may not even read the entire issue. If I like the magazine, I might subscribe to it.

Magazines and comic books are content-focused.

Funcom has realized that MMOs should be as well.

So this leads to another thing. If ZOS takes the same approach to releasing new content issues every 30 days, it won't matter if the players hit max level before issue 1 comes out. It also won't matter whether or not TESO is Free To Play or Subscription-based.

Here's how I would do it if it was me:

Release Issue 1 of post launch content on the last friday within 30 days of launch. Introductory content + first issue is free. Issue #2 would release on the last friday of the following 30-day cycle, but would cost $4.50 per piece of content:

New RAID PvE mission - $3.30
New Standard Group PvE mission - $3.30
New PvP mission - $3.30
New Solo Mission - $3.30
New Social area - $3.30

All in one bundle - $15.00

If all ZOS can get out in a given month is three of the above categories, then keep the same pricepoints for the individual categories, and decrease the Bundle cost to $9.00

Never require a subscription. Core game is a Retail Purchase. First issue of post-launch content is free. Everything thereafter monetized. No subscription fees for a developer to lean on and not release content.

If when we reach max level, before the first post-launch content pack is released, you cannot have what is called Pay To Win. It would still be pay to play, but you pay when you are ready to and only for what interests you.

At least six months of post-launch content for all playstyles needs to be READY by launch. But it needs to be rolled out in packs over those months. Development of the next six months of content would begin the day of launch and be ready six months later.

It's one thing to come out with an expansion every year. But if it is all deployed at once, then it will be played through in its entirety in a matter of days or weeks.

But take the same amount of content and break it down into 12 installments and deploy on per month, and players will get new content more often.

So again, it doesn't bother me how much or how little content the game will launch with in terms of being able to hit max level. I am more concerned about what steps a developer takes to make it so what they release post launch appeals to me and keeps me wanting to play each month...
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Post #210
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I'm a little worried about the fact it's so short but I really get the feeling that although they don't want to outright say it (and scare away a large number of potential players) the main part of this game is really going to be the endgame PVP.

Now I don't mind slightly shorter main story/questing if the endgame PVP really is something that grips me, and is something I can log in and enjoy most evenings. My biggest worry is this will be just another gear progression based game where there entire endgame is getting gear from raids just to do a harder raid to get gear to... do a harder raid... (really seems like a carrot on the stick mechanic to me)

Also just because the level cap is reached in short time doesn't mean that the games content is going to stop at that point. Guild Wars expansions got all players to around level 20 before they finished the starting zones and the entire game was played around level cap levels.
This might be something along those lines where they want the content to be the fun part you play for it being fun content and not because you just want the EXP to level from it.
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You brought this topic up in about 5 different threads on the official board and my response is the same: its not realy doable in a regular MMORPG scale. It is for Secret World because it has no levels and is a more open system. What would you release this content for in TESO? For a random skill level? Of course it would work in an envirement like GW2 where you get downleveled to the content.

Still it is not quite the same thing. Also a large scale MMORPG with more leveling content and less open stuff requires alot of maintance and since the PvP is in place also alot of balancing work.

I would realy like something like you said, but i just cant see it working for a more traditional themepark MMORPG.

Another Argument is basically the "Chewing gum stops tasting" one. People want achievement. In MMORPGs a large majority want to play "through" the game. And then do the raiding as a "reward" new content would probably annoy them. Yess i am calling this right now, as dumb as it sounds, but ive played WoW and ive played EQ2 and i know how stupid the community gets after a while.

Especialy if there is no gear to unlock there.

We TES fans see new quests as fun content. They see it as more work. What they care about is TEH SHINY that waits at the end. Probably we can condition them for something else.
But for that to work we need TRULY innovative quest design. I will probably make a thread about Quest design later today.
This post was last modified: August 2nd 2012 11:59 AM by Sordak
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(August 2nd 2012 05:46 AM)Sordak Wrote:  120 hours of playtime are just shit tier for any MMORPG.

My big hope is that you can do RvR from level 1 on. I hate leveling. I want CONTENT thats FUN and not leveling for the sake of getting content. If i have to level to get what i want from the game (PvP) i just wont bother and play GW2 where i can get it without putting "work" into the game. Cause i want a Game, and not a job i have to pay for.

But i can see why this is. They got 3 leveling Zones. In other words they cant make a huge ammount of leveling content cause they got it 3 times over wich by the way is a retardet way of aproaching game design.
You can do RvR from level 1. Everyone who enters Cyrodiil is automatically raised to level cap. Which is stupid in my opinion, but oh well. People don't want to work for their power and need instant achievements, that's the way it works nowadays. So, good for you.

I love leveling. Progressively getting stronger to overcome powerful foes keeps me going. Of course this also applies to PvP. When I get my head smacked in by a level 99 barbarian, I don't moan that he only beat me because he has a high level, I feel motivated to get stronger myself so one day I can face him on equal terms. If you take that away, you can just as well play any multiplayer games without levels, like FPS or fighting games.
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(August 2nd 2012 11:58 AM)Sordak Wrote:  You brought this topic up in about 5 different threads on the official board and my response is the same: its not realy doable in a regular MMORPG scale. It is for Secret World because it has no levels and is a more open system. What would you release this content for in TESO? For a random skill level? Of course it would work in an envirement like GW2 where you get downleveled to the content.

No... Each Issue would be balanced for Max Level.
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If I'm already paying a monthly fee to play the game, why should I have to pay additional fees to add in more content? That might make more sense for a F2P MMO, but I disagree with it working in one with a subscription.

The truth of the matter is 120 hours until max level is really short. SWTOR was 200 hours to complete the story, so a bit more than ESO depending on how fast you leveled. Like mentioned above though, I'm not really too concerned with how fast I get to the end game. I'm more concerned about what I'll be able to do once I get there.

That was the number one issue with SWTOR and why it's going F2P, especially since they removed Ilum. If the RvR is everything ZOS makes it out to be and it's fun, enjoyable, dynamic, and lasting, then that could potentially be enough to quench player's thirst until they release new content. Obviously they will also have raids, public and instanced dungeons, instanced pvp, crafting, etc. so there will be other things to do.

Variety is important. But, content with depth is even more important. The fact ZOS is really pushing heavily for player-driven politics tells me they understand what player-driven content can do. Player-driven content will always out-last anything the developers can create, so that in itself makes me less concerned with how fast one gets to max level.

I plan on enjoying my experience to max level though, as there are no quest hubs and I get to enjoy the game the way I would any other TES game. I walk my own path, get distracted by something in the distance, and create memories and enjoyment different from others that I'll likely never forget. When I do want to hop in some RvR, as I'll be there a lot, you don't need to be max level to participate and everyone is relatively on equal footing besides having the gear and likely less skills.
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(August 2nd 2012 01:14 PM)Faulgor Wrote:  
(August 2nd 2012 05:46 AM)Sordak Wrote:  120 hours of playtime are just shit tier for any MMORPG.

My big hope is that you can do RvR from level 1 on. I hate leveling. I want CONTENT thats FUN and not leveling for the sake of getting content. If i have to level to get what i want from the game (PvP) i just wont bother and play GW2 where i can get it without putting "work" into the game. Cause i want a Game, and not a job i have to pay for.

But i can see why this is. They got 3 leveling Zones. In other words they cant make a huge ammount of leveling content cause they got it 3 times over wich by the way is a retardet way of aproaching game design.
You can do RvR from level 1. Everyone who enters Cyrodiil is automatically raised to level cap. Which is stupid in my opinion, but oh well. People don't want to work for their power and need instant achievements, that's the way it works nowadays. So, good for you.

I love leveling. Progressively getting stronger to overcome powerful foes keeps me going. Of course this also applies to PvP. When I get my head smacked in by a level 99 barbarian, I don't moan that he only beat me because he has a high level, I feel motivated to get stronger myself so one day I can face him on equal terms. If you take that away, you can just as well play any multiplayer games without levels, like FPS or fighting games.


Yeah YOU do. But i dont. Honestly leveling does NOT belong to PvP. Why? Bedause PvP should always be a skill based thing, ive pointed this out time and time again PvP should be about SKILL and not about GEAR if you want it to be about gear you can play WoW.

Im a long time PvP player and i loved the early Warcraft mods like DotA allstars and Warlock and later switched to DotA 2 and simmlar games, it should always be about skill.
I just cannot understand why you would possibly want to have PvP based on levels and Stats.

It does not have anything to do with "not wanting to work for your achievements" dude. You have to "work" to get good, you have to play to get good at something, its not beeing lazy. Its not like the PvP is a reward. You think in MMORPG patterns. You should think in actual competition terms.
You shouldnt think about the levels you need, think about the Land to Conquer, your enemies to crush. The lamentation of the women!
Thats whats best in life.
Not gear.
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If you remove level and stats from the power-equation, gear becomes even more important. Do you want to even that out, too? Everyone using the same weapon and armor? PVP should be what drives every motivation in the game, getting a higher level, getting better gear, getting better skills and abilites, all to crush your enemy on the field. If you take that motivation out because you don't need these things to succeed, just make a separate game out of it, because there's no connection between PVP and the rest of the game.

If you have skill, you will have no problem reaching the level cap. And yes, I think in MMORPG terms because this is an MMORPG and I want to play an MMORPG, not e-sports.
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(August 2nd 2012 08:59 PM)Faulgor Wrote:  If you remove level and stats from the power-equation, gear becomes even more important. Do you want to even that out, too? Everyone using the same weapon and armor? PVP should be what drives every motivation in the game, getting a higher level, getting better gear, getting better skills and abilites, all to crush your enemy on the field. If you take that motivation out because you don't need these things to succeed, just make a separate game out of it, because there's no connection between PVP and the rest of the game.

If you have skill, you will have no problem reaching the level cap. And yes, I think in MMORPG terms because this is an MMORPG and I want to play an MMORPG, not e-sports.

I agree. MMORPGs are all about progression. Whether it's PvE or PvP, there needs to be a sense of going forward. If players just want straight skill with nothing else as a factor, you can play an RTS or an FPS for that.

For me personally, part of the attachment to RPGs, and MMORPGs in particular, is I feel that I as a player grow as time passes. You just don't get that in other games. Regardless of how much skill and level play into the game, those who are the most skilled will always be at the top.

The only one factor that holds back all MMOs is there will always inevitably be a class that performs better in PvP than others. Skill or not, I would be more concerned about FOTM classes and balancing more than gear.
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I disagree with you even more. There needs to be an equalizer in there. How much PvP did you play in MMORPGs? And how much in other games?

The only PvP of any recent game i enjoyed was GW2 and that only because you get scaled to max level. PvP should always be around skill because if its not. There is NO reason to have it. Look at WoW PvP its PURE frustration to lose to someone with better gear or a higher level, it means no skill.

You just dont understand that PvP is NOT a reward for getting on top of the progression. Its not like its Gear + Skill. Its JUST the progression. You cannot beat someone with more skill if hes got the better items. Its not like "well you gotta prove your skill to fight someone vastly overpowered" no. It turns PvP wich should always be about actual tactics, actual skill and actual situational awareness into a game of statistics.

It just makes no sense the way you want it. PvP =/= Reward for having good gear. PvP is not some "fun mode" where you chill when you got everything. Any game that does PvP well is aware of that and makes the WINNING of the PvP the main motivator, hell , the way you discribe it, there is no motivation but getting PvP gear.
The motivation to win just sinks when you know it has nothing to do with your personal skill.
It just boggles my mind. You can do that in 1v1 duels. Because those are just to compare your gear. But in a seperated, conquest oriented RvR, why would your gear be important? It does not have ANYTHING to do with your PvP effort.

Of course you should get slight bonuses, like you do in Guild Wars 2. But if its just like you explain it no way i would ever play RvR. Because it would be boring, not to mention the opposit of competetive.
And i have to ask you now. How fun is it beeing beaten by someone who just has better gear? Right not at all. Its frustration. It makes you, if you wanna win, do something you dont want to do (grinding) to do something you want to do (PvP) that has nothing to do with its content (and if the PvP is the grinding content it gets even more rediculoous, because its basically lose so ofthen till you dont have to lose anymore i mean thats just silly, of course you get BETTER from losing. But when its about gear, the time is set, and it does not become actual skill anymore) and on the flipside.
How fun is it winning against somneone, knowing its just cause you got the better gear. If you say yess now i can tell you lie, because you just tell that to YOURSELF because id would be embarassing to admit that the grind you did just made you win against someone who just has less time at hand to do that. Instead of the actual rush of winning thorugh skill.

Why dont i just stick to RTS games? Because i want those Mass battles. But i want them to be fair. I want them about player skill. Not abotu Gear. You shouldnt think I as a PvP player should go play an FPS to get what i want. YOU should go play WoW if you want a soulless PvP thats about stats, because the game I want is not out yet, the one you want is.
This post was last modified: August 3rd 2012 12:36 AM by Sordak
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(August 3rd 2012 12:31 AM)Sordak Wrote:  I disagree with you even more. There needs to be an equalizer in there. How much PvP did you play in MMORPGs? And how much in other games?

The only PvP of any recent game i enjoyed was GW2 and that only because you get scaled to max level. PvP should always be around skill because if its not. There is NO reason to have it. Look at WoW PvP its PURE frustration to lose to someone with better gear or a higher level, it means no skill.

You just dont understand that PvP is NOT a reward for getting on top of the progression. Its not like its Gear + Skill. Its JUST the progression. You cannot beat someone with more skill if hes got the better items. Its not like "well you gotta prove your skill to fight someone vastly overpowered" no. It turns PvP wich should always be about actual tactics, actual skill and actual situational awareness into a game of statistics.

It just makes no sense the way you want it. PvP =/= Reward for having good gear. PvP is not some "fun mode" where you chill when you got everything. Any game that does PvP well is aware of that and makes the WINNING of the PvP the main motivator, hell , the way you discribe it, there is no motivation but getting PvP gear.
The motivation to win just sinks when you know it has nothing to do with your personal skill.
It just boggles my mind. You can do that in 1v1 duels. Because those are just to compare your gear. But in a seperated, conquest oriented RvR, why would your gear be important? It does not have ANYTHING to do with your PvP effort.

Of course you should get slight bonuses, like you do in Guild Wars 2. But if its just like you explain it no way i would ever play RvR. Because it would be boring, not to mention the opposit of competetive.
And i have to ask you now. How fun is it beeing beaten by someone who just has better gear? Right not at all. Its frustration. It makes you, if you wanna win, do something you dont want to do (grinding) to do something you want to do (PvP) that has nothing to do with its content (and if the PvP is the grinding content it gets even more rediculoous, because its basically lose so ofthen till you dont have to lose anymore i mean thats just silly, of course you get BETTER from losing. But when its about gear, the time is set, and it does not become actual skill anymore) and on the flipside.
How fun is it winning against somneone, knowing its just cause you got the better gear. If you say yess now i can tell you lie, because you just tell that to YOURSELF because id would be embarassing to admit that the grind you did just made you win against someone who just has less time at hand to do that. Instead of the actual rush of winning thorugh skill.

Why dont i just stick to RTS games? Because i want those Mass battles. But i want them to be fair. I want them about player skill. Not abotu Gear. You shouldnt think I as a PvP player should go play an FPS to get what i want. YOU should go play WoW if you want a soulless PvP thats about stats, because the game I want is not out yet, the one you want is.

I have been actively PvPing in MMORPGs since 2005. I have been one of the top players on my server in Guild Wars, Star Wars Galaxies, and now currently Star Wars: The Old Republic.

The fundamental issue with your idea of PvP is that your idea of PvP is static. Skill or not, PvP should be something that is organic and it would get rather old quickly if there was nothing to work towards. I'm not suggesting by any means that PvP should be completely dicated by gear, however I believe that being factored into the equation brings diversity and something for players to strive for.

World of Warcraft is also a poor example as the game is catered towards casual interests so the learning curve is much smaller. With that said though, the players who are more skilled will always be on top for obvious reasons. Players who understand game mechanics, pros and cons to each class, and basic tactics will always dominate others, as long as they have the right group composition.

I believe you are downplaying how different this game's PvP will likely work in comparison to WoW. We already know PvP and PvE will be based around group tactics, finesse, synergy, and coordination. Unlike in most MMOs where PvP comes down to pre-determined rotations and FOTM classes, that won't as easily be the case in RvR. One of the great features of World PvP is FOTM classes tend to stand out less in mass PvP.

Besides the fact that progression is a fundamental pillar of MMORPGs, ZOS has to give players an incentive to strive forward in PvP. Having PvP for the sake of PvP alone isn't enough to warrant players participating in it for a long period of time. Gear is a way to elongate incentive to participate in the content. Not sure why this bothers you as this is the case with most MMORPGs, especially the current generation.

True "skill" is also a rather lifeless term in today's MMOs. Especially with how casual MMOs have become in recent years, it's really something that cannot be measured. Regardless of that fact, players will always know who the best players are in PvP as they will always excel over others.

Lol you really seem to have the wrong idea about me. I'm probably one of the most competitive players you'll meet when it comes to PvP and excelling over others. That being said, if you want to play an MMO that requires true "skill," you are looking in the wrong place. Check out some of the sandbox MMOs being developed by Indy Developers. They are more prone to make games that are completely skill based, twitch-based, and have little emphasis on gear.

You won't find that in a AAA Themepark MMORPG. Unfortunately for you, that's exactly what ESO will be and we already know gear will definitely play a factor. I still don't even fully understand your issue though as skill in an MMO is almost impossible to measure.

Not to mention the fact that tanks, healers, and dps classes aren't created equal, but they are typically based around group play, not solo. Some classes will just inherently perform better in PvP, so how do you gauge skill then? There is also the fact that eventually the regular PvPers will all have the same gear anyways, so why does it matter in the end?

Perhaps there's something I'm missing, but I just don't really see your point and why you are so upset about this. Regardless, gear progression is something that isn't going away, but there is much more to PvP than just gear. Ultimately, it comes down to good players playing good classes using good tactics. That's what will ultimately decide who is the best. Gear is merely a factor in the full equation.
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