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6 buttons? terrible


Started by captainawesesome
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Ok so when I heard there was going to be an Elder Scrolls MMO I was pretty excited. I knew the game would have potential to be great, but I also knew that there was a good chance that they could screw it up. It sounds like they're doing everything right, but one thing stood out to me. 6 buttons. Only 6 buttons? Seriously? The skill cap is going to be two inches above the skill floor.

What they need to do is take a look at the most successful MMO in MMO history. Yes I'm referring to WoW. Why was WoW so successful? Let's ask ourselves this. Was part of it the battle system? The answer is yes. You had more than 6 buttons in WoW, which made it so that there was a significant difference between bad players, average players, and highly skilled players. I played a rogue in WoW, and I regularly used way more than 6 abilities. On a regular basis I used ambush, cheap shot, garrote, backstab/mutilate, eviscerate/envenom, gouge, kick, slice and dice, evasion, vanish, sprint, kidney shot, shiv, cloak of shadows, dismantle, rupture, sap, and blind. That's 18 abilities. Not to mention any spec specific abilities. Oh what's that? The skill is going to come from managing your stamina/magicka in ESO? Well I had to manage energy as a rogue along with a bunch of cooldowns and abilities.

They're trying to appeal to casual players obviously, but I think that is a mistake. I don't see how having only 6 abilities is going to be good for anyone. All that is doing is putting a limit on the game. There NEEDS to be more than 6 buttons. If they don't change this I don't see how there could possibly be a good distinction between bad and good players. They need to stop appealing to the mouth breathers. If they put limits on the game, the game will have a limited amount of players. Make the game for hardcore players, and the casuals will still play.
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Vindris
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If there was a dislike button to your post, I would click on it now.


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Would you like to elaborate?
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Vindris
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I agree. I was a gladiator in WoW (top 0.5% of competitive PvP players) and a highly ranked player in GW2 as well. I am very experienced with the combat aspect of MMOs. I can tell you that WoW has the best combat system, by far, of any MMO out there. It's one of the reasons it's had so much success, as you were saying.

I think another thing they should look into, aside from more variety in ablities (a great idea) is combat responsiveness. I'm hoping that it can feel like you're in control of your character. I hate ability queues that you can't cancel easily, or ability usage that just feels slow and clunky. Responsive is really the key word here. If they can accomplish that with their combat system, this game will have a much greater chance of succeeding.

Btw, OP... although these ideas all sound great, I fear that the developers are too deep into development to make these changes. It seems they already have their current model (only 6 abilities) set in stone :/
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captainawesesome
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Wow talk about some close minded idiots that have posted and will be posting. Do any of you guys even realized that wow was not the first mmo to have more than 6 buttons? If you want to talk about that, all the current mmos that have more than 1 action bar got the idea from Everquest. Stop using wow as a refrence to everything. Teso is a aim based mmo. Wow is a target npc and mash buttons. To already start judging a game to whom of which you know nothing about is pretty funny itself. You do not like have 6 buttons to use? Good, stay with wow.

You want to know how you can tell who is good and who is bad in Teso? I can give you one example. Strafing! The game is aim based, so obivously strafing will be a big bart of gamplay. People strafe in wow and they do not even have to. Now stop crying until the game is actually playable.
This post was last modified: January 14th 2013 07:29 AM by Handies


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Easy tiger. No reason to flame. I never said WoW was the first MMO to have that system. I do think they did the best job with it tho.

If you have to aim your abilities that would add one dimension of skill, but from what I've seen that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Agree.

If you want endless grinding for nothing and combat that takes no skill just the routine button pressing rotation (3 4 8 6 7 5) and absolutely no lore than go back to WoW.


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(January 14th 2013 07:21 AM)Vindris Wrote:  I agree. I was a gladiator in WoW (top 0.5% of competitive PvP players) and a highly ranked player in GW2 as well. I am very experienced with the combat aspect of MMOs. I can tell you that WoW has the best combat system, by far, of any MMO out there. It's one of the reasons it's had so much success, as you were saying.

I think another thing they should look into, aside from more variety in ablities (a great idea) is combat responsiveness. I'm hoping that it can feel like you're in control of your character. I hate ability queues that you can't cancel easily, or ability usage that just feels slow and clunky. Responsive is really the key word here. If they can accomplish that with their combat system, this game will have a much greater chance of succeeding.

Btw, OP... although these ideas all sound great, I fear that the developers are too deep into development to make these changes. It seems they already have their current model (only 6 abilities) set in stone :/

I'm going to play both sides here. I vehemently agree with you on the need for a responsive system (I wrote about it in my first Rant editorial on this site). What made WoW so good for competitive PvP was the knowledge players had that their abilities fire off the microsecond they need them to. I'm not opposed, necessarily, to some ability queues but the problem is that, often times, they aren't easily stopped or changed -- just as you said. That leads me to fear its implementation.

I'm going to disagree with the fear around 6 abilities though. In itself, it doesn't mean anything harmful to gameplay. I'm a fan of buttons, I like having lots of them, I like binding them over the effin' place and building that muscle memory. But I've got to say, the deck system of only having X abilities impressed me in GW2, and its worked really well in other multiplayer games (like LoL and others). Given my familiarity with DAoC, Matt Firor's most famous project, I have several degrees of faith that things will be ironed out and implemented well.

I suppose its a case of just wait and see, at this stage, as we really don't know a damned thing about any specifics besides the number 6.

EDIT: Oh and for those that are discussing targeting. Its a combination of reticle based and tab-targeting that you're familiar with from other MMOs. The tab-targeting is there to allow you to pick out specific targets in a cluster of enemies (it's geared more towards, and was thought of because of, ranged characters like archers).

EDIT 2: Please don't flame either. I don't want to close a discussiona about mechanics, as I love them. State your point. Debate. That's it.
This post was last modified: January 14th 2013 07:47 AM by Reichmar12


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Not sure why you think WoWs combat takes no skill. I noticed a huge difference between good and bad players in both PvE and PvP. Good players used their abilities properly, managed their cooldowns, and used LoS and positioning to their advantage.

Also, I don't know anyone who used 7 or 8 as a hotkey. I don't know about you but my hand can't stretch that far. I used 1-6, shift 1-6, shift-qwerty, shift-asdfg, etc...

Anyways my point is there was a good distinction between good and bad players in WoW. If you don't think so then you probably didn't play it too much.
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(January 14th 2013 05:52 AM)captainawesesome Wrote:  Only 6 buttons? Seriously? The skill cap is going to be two inches above the skill floor.

There are only six buttons but how many abilities are there? You have to pick from your list of abilities and place them in a hot bar that is limited to five abilities plus one ultimate. Choosing a combination of abilities is where the skill ladder starts.

In TESO the limit to active abilities (actually a challenge in itself), plus the other characteristics of the combat system and the AI, should mean that things like tactics, coordination and timing will be more important.

(January 14th 2013 05:52 AM)captainawesesome Wrote:  Why was WoW so successful? Let's ask ourselves this. Was part of it the battle system? The answer is yes.

This part of your analysis is a bit speedy. Would you care to try and prove that? WoW obviously had many strong points, such as a very popular IP, a reasonably finished product, good marketing and lots of content.

You claim that the number of abilities was a key to making skill matter and make it fun for competent gamers. Don't you think it's possible to make a game challenging without maximising the number of buttons to push?

In chess each piece has only one ability. Does this mean that skill is not a factor in a chess game?
This post was last modified: January 14th 2013 08:00 AM by Skrofler


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(January 14th 2013 07:42 AM)Reichmar12 Wrote:  
(January 14th 2013 07:21 AM)Vindris Wrote:  I agree. I was a gladiator in WoW (top 0.5% of competitive PvP players) and a highly ranked player in GW2 as well. I am very experienced with the combat aspect of MMOs. I can tell you that WoW has the best combat system, by far, of any MMO out there. It's one of the reasons it's had so much success, as you were saying.

I think another thing they should look into, aside from more variety in ablities (a great idea) is combat responsiveness. I'm hoping that it can feel like you're in control of your character. I hate ability queues that you can't cancel easily, or ability usage that just feels slow and clunky. Responsive is really the key word here. If they can accomplish that with their combat system, this game will have a much greater chance of succeeding.

Btw, OP... although these ideas all sound great, I fear that the developers are too deep into development to make these changes. It seems they already have their current model (only 6 abilities) set in stone :/

I'm going to play both sides here. I vehemently agree with you on the need for a responsive system (I wrote about it in my first Rant editorial on this site). What made WoW so good for competitive PvP was the knowledge players had that their abilities fire off the microsecond they need them to. I'm not opposed, necessarily, to some ability queues but the problem is that, often times, they aren't easily stopped or changed -- just as you said. That leads me to fear its implementation.

I'm going to disagree with the fear around 6 abilities though. In itself, it doesn't mean anything harmful to gameplay. I'm a fan of buttons, I like having lots of them, I like binding them over the effin' place and building that muscle memory. But I've got to say, the deck system of only having X abilities impressed me in GW2, and its worked really well in other multiplayer games (like LoL and others). Given my familiarity with DAoC, Matt Firor's most famous project, I have several degrees of faith that things will be ironed out and implemented well.

I suppose its a case of just wait and see, at this stage, as we really don't know a damned thing about any specifics besides the number 6.

EDIT: Oh and for those that are discussing targeting. Its a combination of reticle based and tab-targeting that you're familiar with from other MMOs. The tab-targeting is there to allow you to pick out specific targets in a cluster of enemies (it's geared more towards, and was thought of because of, ranged characters like archers).

EDIT 2: Please don't flame either. I don't want to close a discussiona about mechanics, as I love them. State your point. Debate. That's it.

Pick out targets? Good thing you never played a game like shadowbane or warhammer, which both had key scroll to target.. but had loads of people stacked on one screen. This is where communication, brains and teamwork comes into play. I for one, want aim based. It will require communication and voice chat in pvp. There will be less random running around.




And For fucks sake, Flaming is not point out the wrongs or telling you where you are wrong.


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Alright @Handies , I'm simply stating what the targeting system in ESO is. I have played both of the games you mentioned, and I made no mention of whether I agree with the ESO dev team's decision.

Do me a favor and calm down, please.

You were fine when you were pointing out wrongs. You weren't when you were calling two people you didn't agree with "closed-minded idiots".
This post was last modified: January 14th 2013 08:11 AM by Reichmar12


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Not that I care, but calling someone an idiot is flaming last I checked.

Anyways, Skrofler, I'm not sure how I can prove that. I will say tho that the battle system is a HUGE part of the game. Arguably the most important part of the game. If WoW didn't have a good combat system, I don't think it would have been so successful.

Yes, I do think it is possible to have a challenging game and a high skill cap with only 6 abilities. I just think the more abilities you have, the higher the skill cap will be. This is only one dimension of combat, however. I haven't seen the combat system in action. It may be better than what I expect, and I hope it is. But for now this is what I have to go on.
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(January 14th 2013 08:10 AM)Reichmar12 Wrote:  Alright @Handies , I'm simply stating what the targeting system in ESO is. I have played both of the games you mentioned, and I made no mention of whether I agree with the ESO dev team's decision.

Do me a favor and calm down, please.

You were fine when you were pointing out wrongs. You weren't when you were calling two people you didn't agree with "closed-minded idiots".


I have been calm and will remain that way.

I never pointed how who i was calling a close minded idiot. But glad to see you called yourself one.


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You have more then 6 skills and there will be more then 6 bindable keys, they will have to put something in for potion use and scroll use and most likely at the alpha stage that is not in the game yet.

Also they have mentioned you get an "ultimate skill button" and they also said that you will have way more then 6 skills and it will be up to you which ones you put on your hotbar, and all you need to do to change them up is get out of combat for a few seconds.

So I can picture senarios where you and your group are slogging through a dungeon, suddenly the healer in your group gets a call and he/she has to log out. Your group pauses for a minute while one of you resets their taskbar so that all their healing skills are on it and you continue on without the player who had to log.

Honestly I think it will take a lot more skill to have limitted buttons for your hotbar then it would if you have hotbars all over the place like SWTOR does, god I hated how many skills that game had...

Also I don't understand why some posters on this site seem to think swearing enforces their oppinion somehow, all it does for me is show your lack of maturity...
This post was last modified: January 14th 2013 08:27 AM by Elember




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