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Dragonborns.


Started by Thaiseeran
Post #112363
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Hi,

So, i just defeated Miraak and god it was enjoyable. After his fall by my hands, i was thinking to myself how awesome it would be to encounter more Dragonborns, be it enemy or friendly. Do you think we will encounter any Dragonborn in ESO? I sure hope so. :)
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Post #112378
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The developers answered this question in "Variety Pack 4" and said:

"Are we going to encounter Dragonborns in ESO or learn shouts ourselves? – By Hawk Bullmer

The line of Reman Cyrodiil of the Second Empire was certainly Dragonborn, but they died out at the end of the First Era, and between then and the date of ESO, no “legitimate” Dragonborn has been confirmed by being able to light the Dragonfires in the Imperial City.

As for shouts (i.e., thu’ums), at the time of ESO, they are considered a legend out of the distant past."


Alejandro Jodorowsky: "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."
Keep your eyes open and your mind without favor.
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Post #112411
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(November 10th 2013 02:03 PM)Thaiseeran Wrote:  Hi,

So, i just defeated Miraak and god it was enjoyable. After his fall by my hands, i was thinking to myself how awesome it would be to encounter more Dragonborns, be it enemy or friendly. Do you think we will encounter any Dragonborn in ESO? I sure hope so. :)

I would say no. but if it's something like Miraak then maybe, just maybe...


Winking_tongue_out
This post was last modified: November 10th 2013 06:35 PM by alien138


Long live the Pact, and Death to le Queen
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Post #112433
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(November 10th 2013 02:50 PM)BlytheAlarynn Wrote:  The developers answered this question in "Variety Pack 4" and said:

"Are we going to encounter Dragonborns in ESO or learn shouts ourselves? – By Hawk Bullmer

The line of Reman Cyrodiil of the Second Empire was certainly Dragonborn, but they died out at the end of the First Era, and between then and the date of ESO, no “legitimate” Dragonborn has been confirmed by being able to light the Dragonfires in the Imperial City.

As for shouts (i.e., thu’ums), at the time of ESO, they are considered a legend out of the distant past."

Yet, we know from Oblivion, the blood line of the Septims is unbroken from Tiber Septim to Martin Septim. So definitelly there are Dragonborns around. Also, as said before, the Thu'um and the way of the Voice have ever been an essential aspect of Nordic culture, the way of the Voice atleast since the Jurgen Wind-Caller.


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #112680
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I would say they're certainly there, but nothing happened to legitimize a dragonborn's existence. As Idriar pointed out, the Septim line is still going and every direct Septim is Dragonborn if I remember my lore correctly.

As for the Variety Pack #4 question, I feel this is a terrible lore decision (although a canon one now at this point if they haven't changed their decision). I mean... the Nords in TES:5 are all like "Well of course Thu'ums exist, there's a whole group of hermits right on that mountain that do it all the time. You can even visit them if you want". You know, the group that's been there since the war with the dragons? In fact it's ingrained in their culture that Thu'ums DO exist and that the Greybeards have been actively practicing it for thousands of years pretty much right in front of them. For ZOS to say that the Nords considered it an ancient myth is kind of sloppy, in my opinion.

Personally I feel they made this choice purely because they thought the players would be too spoiled to simply accept being told "No, you can't learn Thu'ums because they're supposed to be special and hard to learn, not freely known to a third of the entire population of Tamriel".


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Post #112714
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the Septim bloodline doesn't exist during ESO though. Tiber Septim isn't even born until 300 years after the war begins.

Also, it makes perfect sense that Nords don't use the Voice in the 2nd era. While to power of the Voice isn't exactly rare in Nords, the "Way of the Voice" established by the greybeard in the 1st era dictated that the Voice only be used in times of "great need." As we know, the greybeards aren't too concerned with the wars of man so their wars don't constitute great need. Those who are found to have a talent with the Voice almost always end up becoming one of the grey beards. Also without dragon's blood, mastering even one word of power can take a lifetime.

Also as pointed out above, the only requirement to be dragonborn is to have dragon's blood (or be part of a dragonborn's bloodline ie Reman Cyrodiil), there could be atleast a few unrecognized dragonborn in the world. They still couldn't use their Voice like in Skyrim because that would require the souls of dragons (who are not present). The only other way to be recognized as dragonborn is the ability to light the dragon fires with the amulet of kings (which is currently entombed in Sancre Tor).

So while ZoS saying the Voice is a "long lost myth" is highly inaccurate, Dragonborn level mastery of the Voice like in Skyrim would still absolutely not exist. Opening the power of the Voice to every Nord would be massively more lore-breaking.


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Do'Rakk the Brawler Backstory & Biography
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Diebleuekrabben
Post #112738
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Not to mention unfair and hard to implement.


Member of the Twilight Seers of Aquilas Domini
Foriel Barkwing- Bosmer Archer
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Post #112764
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Pretty much what Do'Rakk said, the Septim dynasty hasn't been formed yet thus those examples are moot and the line of Reman Cyrodiil is ended (the legitimate heirs at least) so that line of dragonborns will not be encountered.

There will almost certainly not be any dragonborns like Miirak because he was a very very special case so to reuse something like that would completely ruin a lot of stuff for me. There very likely will be at least one dragonborn in ESO though he/she probably doesn't even know he/she is a dragonborn thus such bloodline will never be recognized in game much less will he/she be able to wield the Thu'um.

As for the matter of the Thu'um itself it will undoubtedly not be seen in game for many lore reasons, first like Do'Rakk said above it can take decades to learn even the first word of the most basic Thu'um and even that would be unstable to use.

It's not entirely incorrect to say the Thu'um is a long lost myth, in one of the lore books the player can read (I forget the title) about Tiber Septim the phrase "The greybeards removed their gags and spoke his name shaking the earth and calling him to High Hrothgar" (or similar text) is mentioned, given that the game is long before Tiber's birth one could assume that the greybeards still have these "gags" in place preventing them from shouting, from that one could assume that no one or at least few people have heard a Thu'um thus the majority of the populace of Tamriel would think that the Thu'um does not exist any more.

I may have some of my lore mixed up or maybe I left something out so that theory may have some flaws so if you find something that contradicts this theory please post it.


The Kynaran Order
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Post #112771
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I admit my mistake...

Yes, Tiber was not Born yet, so the Septim blood line does not exist.


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #112802
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Part of being a Greybeard is that you actually practice the shouts (at least some of them). Of all the pilgrims going up the steps, do you really think nobody would have heard them practicing their shouts? What happens in TES:5 when you absorb the dragon soul? The one guy runs up to you and tells you to shout, and nobody bats an eye when you do because everyone knows Dragonborns exist and a simple fact that every traditional Nord knows is that Dragonborns can shout. Considering the fact that Ulfric trained how to shout and that the Way of the Voice hasn't been changed at all (not considering retcons), we can assume there were other people who learned how to shout when not a Greybeard and used it for various reasons outside of High Hrothgar. There was no reason for the Greybeards to take part in anything for a LONG time exactly like how it is in ESO, yet nobody is like "Ulfric used a myth to kill his brother, I can hardly believe it's the truth". It's always "Yeah, he used a shout. That's pretty amazing and all, but them's simply the facts". I'm sorry but I think paired with Nord culture and that it's simply too much in the Nords' faces, saying it's thought of as a myth of older times is a stretch.
This post was last modified: November 13th 2013 08:40 AM by vigk vagk v2


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Post #112830
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Yes but all that is in the fourth era, roughly two thousand years or so after the events of TESO, as such much more has happened, Tiber Septim by then has come and gone which of course will cause people to believe that the Thu'um is still wield-able as Tiber used it himself, before the Septim dynasty there are very very few, if any, examples of the Thu'um being used until the very early first era.

So to conclude that, at the time of TESO the Thu'um very likely will still be a myth of some sort.

As for people hearing the greybeards practise, like I said before, the greybeards had a "gag" of sorts in place to prevent from causing disasters as supposedly they shook Nirn simply saying "Talos", these gags are very likely to be a metaphor not literal such as they restrained themselves from speaking.

After the birth of the Septim dynasty of course the Thu'um was more widely known, perhaps the greybeards controlled their voices more which allowed them to speak more often.

Also in Skyrim when you first shout all the guards are completely miffed and awed as no dragonborn has ever existed for centuries.


The Kynaran Order
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Post #112839
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The part that Thu'um doesn't exist during 2E is complete utter bullshit. Nords have had tongues for, well forever. If Zenimax believes Graybeards are the only ones who are capable of using Thu'um, they are dead wrong.


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Post #112845
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I don't believe that anyone has said that the Thu'um didn't exist during the second era nor did ZOS, they're saying it was considered a myth as very few Thu'um wielders have revealed themselves, save for maybe the greybeards, which, as I said above, may not be entirely wrong though to say that it didn't exist would be bullshit yes.


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Post #112847
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(November 13th 2013 08:39 AM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote:  Part of being a Greybeard is that you actually practice the shouts (at least some of them). Of all the pilgrims going up the steps, do you really think nobody would have heard them practicing their shouts? What happens in TES:5 when you absorb the dragon soul? The one guy runs up to you and tells you to shout, and nobody bats an eye when you do because everyone knows Dragonborns exist and a simple fact that every traditional Nord knows is that Dragonborns can shout. Considering the fact that Ulfric trained how to shout and that the Way of the Voice hasn't been changed at all (not considering retcons), we can assume there were other people who learned how to shout when not a Greybeard and used it for various reasons outside of High Hrothgar. There was no reason for the Greybeards to take part in anything for a LONG time exactly like how it is in ESO, yet nobody is like "Ulfric used a myth to kill his brother, I can hardly believe it's the truth". It's always "Yeah, he used a shout. That's pretty amazing and all, but them's simply the facts". I'm sorry but I think paired with Nord culture and that it's simply too much in the Nords' faces, saying it's thought of as a myth of older times is a stretch.

Again, The ability to use the Voice is not rare in Nords, nor is the Voice itself thought of as a myth. ZoS was incorrect to say this, but Dragonborn level mastery (which in reality is what the majority wants when they say they want shouts) of the Voice is impossible without dragons. Yes, Ulfric was naturally talented in the Voice and was trained by the Grey Beards, but his level of mastery is nowhere near what the mastery that a dragon born, fueled by dragon souls, can achieve. I think the Voice is skyrim was looked at as sort of Olympic level athleticism - Not unheard of, but how many people do you personally know who were in the Olympics? This is why Ulfric's use of the Voice could be so impressive without being absolutely unheard of. So While the Voice itself is not mythical, I think ZoS could have been more accurate to say that the way the dragonborn learns to use the Voice could be considered to be "long-lost" as dragons were thought to be extinct until the return of Alduin.

I could go on, but the point is the Voice itself might not be what ZoS was referring to, but specifically the dragonborn's way of learning, applying, and mastering the Voice (because let's me honest, thats what everyone really means when they say they want shouts). This makes ZoS's explanation totally reasonable and lore-friendly. ZoS just really needs to be more careful with their choice of wording in things like these.


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Do'Rakk the Brawler Backstory & Biography
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Post #112943
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(November 13th 2013 02:07 PM)DoRakk Wrote:  
(November 13th 2013 08:39 AM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote:  Part of being a Greybeard is that you actually practice the shouts (at least some of them). Of all the pilgrims going up the steps, do you really think nobody would have heard them practicing their shouts? What happens in TES:5 when you absorb the dragon soul? The one guy runs up to you and tells you to shout, and nobody bats an eye when you do because everyone knows Dragonborns exist and a simple fact that every traditional Nord knows is that Dragonborns can shout. Considering the fact that Ulfric trained how to shout and that the Way of the Voice hasn't been changed at all (not considering retcons), we can assume there were other people who learned how to shout when not a Greybeard and used it for various reasons outside of High Hrothgar. There was no reason for the Greybeards to take part in anything for a LONG time exactly like how it is in ESO, yet nobody is like "Ulfric used a myth to kill his brother, I can hardly believe it's the truth". It's always "Yeah, he used a shout. That's pretty amazing and all, but them's simply the facts". I'm sorry but I think paired with Nord culture and that it's simply too much in the Nords' faces, saying it's thought of as a myth of older times is a stretch.

Again, The ability to use the Voice is not rare in Nords, nor is the Voice itself thought of as a myth. ZoS was incorrect to say this, but Dragonborn level mastery (which in reality is what the majority wants when they say they want shouts) of the Voice is impossible without dragons. Yes, Ulfric was naturally talented in the Voice and was trained by the Grey Beards, but his level of mastery is nowhere near what the mastery that a dragon born, fueled by dragon souls, can achieve. I think the Voice is skyrim was looked at as sort of Olympic level athleticism - Not unheard of, but how many people do you personally know who were in the Olympics? This is why Ulfric's use of the Voice could be so impressive without being absolutely unheard of. So While the Voice itself is not mythical, I think ZoS could have been more accurate to say that the way the dragonborn learns to use the Voice could be considered to be "long-lost" as dragons were thought to be extinct until the return of Alduin.

I could go on, but the point is the Voice itself might not be what ZoS was referring to, but specifically the dragonborn's way of learning, applying, and mastering the Voice (because let's me honest, thats what everyone really means when they say they want shouts). This makes ZoS's explanation totally reasonable and lore-friendly. ZoS just really needs to be more careful with their choice of wording in things like these.

No, no, no.

Anyone could master the voice, through deep meditation, the Way of the Voice was just the 1st legitimately established group, to practice this belief.

Hell, miraak was born before Tiber Septim, which alone proves the fact many dragon born could legitimately be around.

not to mention the fact, that it was recorded many Atmoran warriors practiced the voice, and some of their kings were demonstrated to show great mastery with it.

Hell, king's before Jorunn the Skald King, showed EXTREME mastery of the voice, it's just they either had no legitimate proof of being dragonborn, or obtained high dragonborn levels of Voice mastery some other way.

Take the ebony warrior for example, lol he was just as proficient, if not more proficient then the dragon born in fus-ro-dah.

Anyone strong enough, could obviously master it, just happens to be preferably nords, and favored by the nordic pantheon, or more specifically kyne

Before tiber septim, many were supposedly said to have mastery over the voice, not to mention according to Jurgen-The Wind-Caller, "the voice had been practiced throughout generations after ysgramors great march against the elven scum, but my brethren abused this gift, and rather used it for war and pillage, then to worship the gods."

kind of obvious, even before jurgen, or tiber was born, voice was being practiced, hell even before The Tribunal.

sooooo, in reality, Their should be a high ass content of Nord's, or NPC's or players using the Voice, just not at Dragonborn level, unless, you of are course, someone like wulfharth in mortal form, or like any Nordic Champion.


Bromlokiir, I shall serve till my soul is no longer!

Clan member of the Bromlokiir! RP name is Yuvon Yol-Kaal, this will also be my name in ESO.


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