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P2P/B2P hybrid innovation. whose with me?


Started by Adri.fajar
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okay i already debate this so much in other thread. now i maybe have a solution. as that title said

so to enter the game. we must pay the game first. while after that we can choose to pay monthly (get in-game currency automatically, without break the immerse world and don't need to see some cash shop advertisement) or pay in-game cash shop separately which is expensive. but for someone who cannot justify monthly fee this is fair enough.

the in-game cash shop does not contain P2W. it is like GW2.

BUT. how we integrated this system into a game and does not break the immerse world more effectively?

P2P player that pay monthly fee. like i said will get in-game currency. but to make it more logical. i think P2P player can have some kind of "Private Farm" or other thing. that we can manage. and it produces the in-game currency!

in the other hand the B2P player. don't get that kind of "private farm" but they can bought the in-game currency separately but it was more expensive and inefficient compared to P2P player that played monthly.

it will not broke the game! think of it.

this is my innovation. any suggestion what i need to add?

EDIT: sorry about my grammar. i think the title should be nvm. you know what i mean xD
This post was last modified: November 12th 2012 11:37 PM by Adri.fajar


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Post #8541
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Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't know how well it would work. It would be a bit of a weird business strategy. Just my 2 cents.


Do you happen to know what the fine is here in Cyrodiil for necrophilia? Just asking.
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Post #8543
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(November 12th 2012 11:24 PM)Schafferius Wrote:  Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't know how well it would work. It would be a bit of a weird business strategy. Just my 2 cents.

explain where is the weird part. and maybe i can improve more


Bosmer Archer, know strategy, and master of surprises.

All Hail Aldmeri Dominion!

-Radiance- <http://www.tesof.com/topic-radiance>
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Post #8544
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(November 12th 2012 11:35 PM)Adri.fajar Wrote:  
(November 12th 2012 11:24 PM)Schafferius Wrote:  Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't know how well it would work. It would be a bit of a weird business strategy. Just my 2 cents.

explain where is the weird part. and maybe i can improve more

It's weird in the sense that it's not traditional. Don't get me wrong, this could work. It's just different is all.


Do you happen to know what the fine is here in Cyrodiil for necrophilia? Just asking.
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Post #8547
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(November 12th 2012 11:40 PM)Schafferius Wrote:  
(November 12th 2012 11:35 PM)Adri.fajar Wrote:  
(November 12th 2012 11:24 PM)Schafferius Wrote:  Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't know how well it would work. It would be a bit of a weird business strategy. Just my 2 cents.

explain where is the weird part. and maybe i can improve more

It's weird in the sense that it's not traditional. Don't get me wrong, this could work. It's just different is all.

thats why this maybe innovation xD

and one more. people who think GW2 is p2w... maybe its right. but not really... watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/channel/SWgF3-cDjIKZY
This post was last modified: November 13th 2012 12:51 AM by Adri.fajar


Bosmer Archer, know strategy, and master of surprises.

All Hail Aldmeri Dominion!

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Post #8589
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Alright, I'm not in complete opposition of a cash shop in mmorpgs, but in order to not break immersion (for me, at least), some pretty insane measures have to be taken:

- The cash shop has to be accessed through an NPC or other object in the game, and be completely removed from the interface.

- the items sold in the cash shop has to be 'in character': They need to support the setting, and be something that doesn't disconnect you from the atmosphere, lore, or environment of the game.

- different diversity of items in the cash shop have to be sold separately. It makes no (in game) logical sense that bank expansions are sold alongside clothing and experience boosters.

- if they can't find a way to make an item they want in the cash shop to resemble something that would be present in the world... Then don't make it.

If these criteria are upheld, I would not mind a freemium model. There are still problems with such a model creating disparity between paying and non-paying customers, creating an 'upper' and 'lower' class of players both to the developer, and in the eyes of the players as well (it's been happening in almost every other game with such a model, and I'm not discounting GW2 from turning into something like this, with time as well. It's only been out for about three months, and I was already seeing the signs before I lost interest in it).

Honestly.. I still prefer a p2p model.. Only argument against it I've seen is 'EXPLOITATION!' and that is such a weird and subjective argument. Dev's gotta eat, right? Also, it doesn't have to be the usual $14.99 that we pay for subs now.. UO had an $8 or $9 sub, afaik. And competition on this front could surely win over quite a few players!


In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
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Post #8615
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I am not opposed to this idea at all, but would add some more stipulations or suggestions.

I have played Everquest 2 both P2P and F2P when I am between paychecks and my sub runs out. As a P2P I have 7 characters; as a F2P I can only play 3 of them which the game chooses from my last played characters before FREE started. I think this is fair, that paying customers should get more characters at their disposal.

Also, my free gals cannot craft and they cannot use the player-ingame-market but only the SC Station Cash market that goes directly to Sony. I hate playing free for this reason because I love to craft but again, I see this as fair.

My free gals can forage - gather the supplies needed for crafting and they do have access to the group account bank, so they can store these items for later when I pay again.

EQ2 also has a Beta test that you can send you character to and I believe that is free, not sure; but I have never tried that.

I am very open to buy TESO originally and some ppl P2P & those who cannot afford that do F2P under above stipulations and buying their ingame items as Aseir said from an NPC merchant in a shop, which the P2P ppl could use if they wanted to also. All fighting, guild joining skills should be equal between both kinds of players.

Anything that gets the most TES/Online gaming fans into Tamriel playing and working and warring together - I am for! Heart


TESO - - Multiplayer: "M'aiq does not know this word. You wish others to help you in your quest? Coward! If you must, search for the Argonian Im-Leet, or perhaps the big Nord, Rolf the Uber. They will certainly wish to join you." M'aiq the Liar.

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Post #8621
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(November 13th 2012 02:40 AM)Aseir Wrote:  Alright, I'm not in complete opposition of a cash shop in mmorpgs, but in order to not break immersion (for me, at least), some pretty insane measures have to be taken:

If these criteria are upheld, I would not mind a freemium model. There are still problems with such a model creating disparity between paying and non-paying customers, creating an 'upper' and 'lower' class of players both to the developer, and in the eyes of the players as well (it's been happening in almost every other game with such a model, and I'm not discounting GW2 from turning into something like this, with time as well. It's only been out for about three months, and I was already seeing the signs before I lost interest in it).

i agree with you.

but its not really the same as freemium actually. freemium does not require to buy the game first, it was completely free. what im telling here. is somekind of "buymium" lol. which everyone bought the game. so people know what are they doing. the In-game cash shop is not OP. buying with in-game cash shop separately will be inefficient. but it can justify price for someone that does not commit to pay monthly. it create option for players.

Edit: the developer of course need to eat. but it does not matter of the business type.
i know you want a immerse game. but to attract more audience and player. we need innovation. but one more. yes the in-game cash shop must be logical. they should be a NPC.
This post was last modified: November 13th 2012 04:52 AM by Adri.fajar


Bosmer Archer, know strategy, and master of surprises.

All Hail Aldmeri Dominion!

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Post #8624
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I don't really get why people buy into this 'buy first, then play for free' model as vastly different to F2P.. It's the exact same thing, but with one difference. You pay up front for something you haven't tried yet (unless you've been in the beta, of course).

Having spent a pretty large initial cost on the game, and then expecting to play for free.. The devs actually benefit from you not playing the game. This actually encourages them even further to restrict your experience if you play for free, in this model, as opposed to the normal F2P model. It's really consumer unfriendly in the long term, yet somehow they've managed to sell the concept.

And with the model you're suggesting, they have even more reason to restrict free players, as opposed to subscribing players. I don't know if you've seen the trend in freemiums these days, but Planetside 2 has a business model that really treats the free players (even the non subscribers, that still use the cash shop) like trash!

Really... Most of my problems with cash shops in mmorpgs come from the restrictions they incur on you, to enforce people who can afford it, to buy themselves out of these restrictions.. With a Freemium model, it happens over time.. I played DDO, and found it quite enjoyable as long as you subscribed.. The immersion in that game is inexistant, though.

To me, the few only differences between a subscription based business model, and any other model that has a cash shop is the fact that I will probably be spending more money on the game with a cash shop, due to buying out of restrictions initially, than I would a p2p game.. And the fact that a cash shop greatly breaks immersion... There's also the fact that the game has to be designed around a cash shop.

And those things will pretty much make me lose interest in the game, after a while.. Which is also beneficial for the devs.. (I pay more than I would for a p2p model for the game, during the time I play and then I leave, which lessens server load). They win, I lose.

To attract more players, we need innovation, sure.. But in the game, not in the business model. Besides, they can just compete on the subscription fee by lowering it a bit. Also.. Appealing to a mass market is shooting yourself in the foot. WoW already has that demographic, and it's not going to change anytime soon. Rather cater to a niche market, and be happy about the 500k-1mil players you'll get (It's sustainable, trust me. Take a look at EVE Online!).
This post was last modified: November 13th 2012 05:22 AM by Aseir


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Post #8631
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i myself would prefer a p2p model. with the monthly subs being cashed in by the makers of the game, we can assure that the devs have more cushion for expenditures for further game development, bug fixes and other things.

for me a p2p model would be the ideal model. the only thing that game devs have to deliberate:
1) How much is "fair enough price" for the game?
2) How do you keep subscribers happy?

another thing. for me the cash shop shouldn't be selling anything that could give advantage to players. it would be better of if it's like gw2's cash shop. sells only costumes, dyes and fashion items and bags.
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Post #8638
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(November 13th 2012 04:50 AM)Aseir Wrote:  I don't really get why people buy into this 'buy first, then play for free' model as vastly different to F2P.. It's the exact same thing, but with one difference. You pay up front for something you haven't tried yet (unless you've been in the beta, of course).

you are wrong. buy2play is not the same as F2p freemium.

buy2play you must buy the game. F2p is completely can be played by free. sometime it create confusion when p2p gamers hear this. because they do not know what is the case. stop debating about b2p and f2p. it was different. unless you live in a country where you like to buy F2p Game which is really weird for me (i usually download the f2p game for free)

Edit: and about eve. you know eve online is also like WoW. its old. and p2p fits good there.
for a new game. it does not necessarily p2p. because there is a "growing majority" that want this game buy2play.
dont just see because p2p poll is higher will leads to p2p. there is 30% people want buy2play. and it is very Significant

but who knows what will happen.

aseir, you dont need to afraid it would break immersion. as i told you before. if you choose the p2p at p2p/b2p hybrid. you will granted some "private farm" which you sell to npc and generates in-game currency far more efficient than the one who buys separately. it will be like roughly 200% efficiency if you choose p2p.

and you say using b2p " restrict your experience if you play for free".
come on don't start again. how can a cosmetic/dyes/power-up. will make it become restricting.

and for how the in-game cash works. it must be integrated with the game. like in a specific NPC. thats fair right? it will not break the immersion

edit: you said its your opinion that you dont want the game like many advertisement. so if you p2p it will not break the immersive world.
i understand you dont like a disparity. but like i said. how can a cosmetic/dyes/power-up create disparity. the most important thing everyone Buy the game! there is no pure F2P player in my model. check it and read it again
This post was last modified: November 13th 2012 06:16 AM by Adri.fajar


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All Hail Aldmeri Dominion!

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at least everyone spend money here.... which is fair


Bosmer Archer, know strategy, and master of surprises.

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Post #8646
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Hey,
Personally I like the olden days of mmo's, where you just paid for the box and then got the 1st month free & after that you had to sub to the game every month, with price breaks for subbing 3, 6 or more months at a time. Simpler times.

However, times have changed & f2p was recently the name of the game when it helped boost failing games like the LOTRO & DDO. That was afew short years ago now too, and recently it has become clearer that the f2p model isn't the silver bullet in the long term for games that have switched. Initial population boosts eventually fade away. Maybe that is because so many games have switch or released with this f2p cash-shop model that the market is flooded OR maybe these games weren't good enough in the first place to get large amounts of players to play them. Personally, the latter seems more likely.
A very good example or test of this will happen this week. Star Wars the old republic (SWTOR) will be free to play with a cash shop this week. If you watch that game make the switch for the next 2-3 months, I'd predict that the servers will see a huge boost in the first few weeks and eventually fall down once again. Why? Well in my opinion the game has not changed in any fundamental way from when it was 1st released. If the playerbase didn't think it was good enough to subscribe to back then, why would they change their minds now when the gameplay hasn't changed since.

Having said that, I also like to think of things from a Business point of view (perhaps because I went to business college). The number 1 aim of these games is to make money. Never forget that. Devs will say they want to make a great game as the no.1 priority, which probably is the truth from their points of view. But the real bosses of the game, the ones putting the money up to make the game in the 1st place want to see a return on their investments & if the devs don't deliver the game that will do that, heads tend to roll & devs get laid off. Now with that being the case, the culture of the MMO market & even all computer games is changing once again. Downloadable content is the future according to some of the industries leaders. Games are releasing now were you buy the game on day 1 and then also have the "option" to buy DLC on day one too. That to me is double-dipping & I personally think that is the dark path these game companies are trying to get people to accept. It is happening slowly enough to eventually be accepted as the norm. Look at The Secret World. You buy the game. You then have to pay a sub every month. You also have a cash shop. Look at WoW now too. Same deal. When did the mmo genre go from having seperate pricing models to this double-dipping model that is becoming more & more common now? In an investor's ideal world, the player would buy the game, then they would subscribe to the game, then they would also buy the content from the cash-shop of the game too. That is the most desirable outcome.

That brings me to my final point. I'm not sure what model the ESO will adopt, but I think the signs are pointing towards whatever model will bring in the most money. Guild Wars 2 might have helped to possibly buck the recent trend, but I doubt it is enough. Like I said at the start, I don't mind paying for the box & then subscribing. But I'd like to know my subscription money gets me everything the game has to offer, that includes everything in the cash shop if the game has one too. If that means charging a higher sub, then so be it. But don't double-dip the loyal customers.
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Post #8649
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(November 13th 2012 06:26 AM)Xhatch Wrote:  That brings me to my final point. I'm not sure what model the ESO will adopt, but I think the signs are pointing towards whatever model will bring in the most money. Guild Wars 2 might have helped to possibly buck the recent trend, but I doubt it is enough. Like I said at the start, I don't mind paying for the box & then subscribing. But I'd like to know my subscription money gets me everything the game has to offer, that includes everything in the cash shop if the game has one too. If that means charging a higher sub, then so be it. But don't double-dip the loyal customers.

thats why i also dont know what kind of business model that this game will choose. i just want to propose a innovation. where we can sub. or not. they pay already for the box. which is different to any f2p game now. i want to create p2p/b2p. where p2p can get the immersive world by "private farm".

or maybe p2p just get every skins and boost already by using subs. but this create problem. this means the in-game cash shop. must also cheap.

i still prefer p2p will have the "private farm". it will not break anything of the game experience

anyway if it is pure p2p. i will still playing it. but it does not feel right...
This post was last modified: November 13th 2012 07:10 AM by Adri.fajar


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Post #8737
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No its worse for both crowds. the P2P people will not be on equal footing, basically given premium treatment while the B2P people would be even more damaged than in a regular system where they dont want to buy stuff for money.

Aseir, your comprehension is the opposit of what is the case.

In fact it is P2P devs that rather not have you playing the game. If a cash shop is in place, the devs will want you to play to see other people wearing those fancy cosmetic items, just as an example.
In a P2P model, you always pay the same ammount per month, in reality they want you to play less to put less pressure on the servers.

While a B2P model RELIES on you playing the game, or they wont make any money.
This way also forces the developers to create new content. Since P2P devs only have to focus on minimal content, as in so much content that people dont stop paying the subs.
While in a B2P game, the devs have to cosntatly keep a stream of quality content, because the content is their DIRECT source of income.

DDO is a good example of this.
This post was last modified: November 13th 2012 12:14 PM by Sordak
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