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SPOILER: Sutch and Sancre Tor, Lost Cities of Cyrodiil


Started by Terminus Zaire
Post #24532
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257
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Greetings everyone, I've been watching over the majority of the forums for quite a while now, reading but never really posting, so I decided it would be a good time to change that with the release of some very amazing information I've stumbled upon.

I suppose I might as well start at the beginning of my discovery so that people can get an understanding of how I came to my conclusions and understand my motivations for researching this topic.
It all started about a month ago now when I stumbled upon a video in which the individual being interviewed said:

Quote:You'll have the chance to explore all of Cyrodiil to see the cities you know and loved from Oblivion, as well as two new cities.
Source: Unknown, please see my note at the bottom of the page about this

Now of course I was excited about this, and I knew some information about an a city from Oblivion that was removed named Sutch, but I was too busy watching more videos on TESO at that time to do any more research into the matter. I did, however, rewind the video to make sure that I understood his comment correctly, and I did. After a few hours the comment slipped my mind, and I continued to nerdgasm about the idea of playing the Elder Scrolls with my friends.

Months passed after this event, and I continued to learn more and more about TESO mechanics, quests, everything I could possibly get my hands on. I sat at my computer and listed to hours of video, read dozens of stories and articles about what it would be like to play. All in all, I must have spent over 100 hours just researching TESO.

Eventually, I came across a short story on the Elder Scrolls Online website called "Jorunn the Skald-King," which explains the history behind the Akaviri war that takes place approximately 10 years before the Alliance War. One paragraph in the passage made me stop reading all-together:

[Image: qBWXpnA.jpg]
Source: The Stories of Tamriel: Jorunn the Skald-King

Mournhold, Stormhold and... there it was again, Sutch, the long lost city of Cyrodiil.
I decided to start doing some research to see what I could discover about this city that apparently nobody had ever heard of.

The first and most obvious choice was to do a little research into the Lore of Sutch and see what I could read what others already found out. I was mildly disappointed when all I could find was only a few sentences on the subject:

Quote:County Sutch extended north towards the Brena River, an area which is now considered part of County Kvatch.
The city had been in existence since at least 2E 864.
By 3E 433, nothing remained of the settlement but the ruins of Fort Sutch Abbey.
Source: UESP Lore on Sutch

I dug around further, and was able to find 2 pictures of the elusive city:

[Image: xM7Yu5J.png]

[Image: i29J2sv.png]

[Image: 100_0854.jpg]
Sources: UESP Notes on the Brina Cross Inn
Pre-release video of Oblivion


Looks like it really DID exist! But for some reason, it got removed from Oblivion before the official release. Why would they ever do something like that?
I started thinking about the difference between the ES games, and realized that Oblivion took place in the third era. TESO takes place in the second, thousands of years prior to the abandonment or destruction of the city. And then it hit me; destruction, Cyrodiil was a war zone during the Second Era!

Could it be that this city was completely destroyed during the war?
Could this be a city that was lost to history, until now?
The answer, as far as I'm concerned, is YES!

This means that the information above, stating that the city had existed since 2E 864, was VERY inaccurate. In fact, the city had existed HUNDREDS of years prior to that, as far back as 2E 572, according to the reference provided related to Joruun the Skald-King.

But then I remembered the original quote, that TWO new cities would be added to Cyrodiil... What could be the second?
I turned to the UESP Elder Scrolls Wiki, and began to find everything I could about Cyrodiil.

It was after almost a week of searching that I finally found what I was looking for, and I facepalmed that I hadn't noticed it before. I was eventually linked to the Lore page for Sancre Tor, and exploded with delight when I read this:

Quote:Sancre Tor was a fortified city once conquered by Tiber Septim that later fell into ruins. In 2E 852, the city was captured by invading forces from High Rock and Skyrim. General Talos, who would later become Tiber Septim, recaptured the city that winter, however as the city was in a strategically inconvenient position it was then abandoned.
Source: UESP Lore on Sancre Tor

2E 852 was again the earliest reference to this... city?
Did I just read that Sancre Tor used to be a CITY??
Yes, Sancre Tor was actually a bustling and fortified city prior to the wars that General Talos fought for the Nords. I was surprised that again, not much information existed about this fort, which was once apparently a major city within Cyrodiil; important enough for warriors from High Rock to attack it!

It was around this time that I determined that I needed to create a new visual representation to allow everyone to see what these new cities would look like once added to Cyrodiil for The Elder Scrolls Online.

I started by again using UESP to look at the maps of the areas that the cities once stood, and what I found against stunned me at how obvious it was:

[Image: 43Q0YAM.jpg]

[Image: LRg7718.jpg]

[Image: 0EaTz2v.png]
Source: UESP Map of Oblivion

The area that was once Sutch looked different from the surrounding area, clear of all major rocks and trees, and was relatively flat in comparison to the rest of the wilderness. Unless we had been given the notion prior to the release of The Elder Scrolls Online that this area had actually been a city, nobody would have taken the time to connect the fact that the rocks and brush had been cleared for what was once an entire city. Also, for comparison sake, Sancre Tor is almost the exact same size as Bruma, the city found to the very East of the abandoned city.

This is the developers of the Elder Scrolls taking into account what thousands of years would look like after a city was completely destroyed. Because there wasn't any major walls to the outside of the city similar to the design of Sancre Tor, the wooden buildings that made up the city were either burned down or rotted away. The pictures that I was able to come up with showed that a lake was found to the North East, but I wasn't able to find any proof of its existance by looking at the map. As for Lord Drad's estate, it may have been one of the final remaining homes from Sutch, or it could have been build hundreds of years after the memory of Sutch was lost.

After hours of work, I've been able to build a map based on the lore associated with Sutch and Sancre Tor of what they will look like upon the release of The Elder Scrolls Online. Please don't be hating on my Microsoft Paint skills; as far as I'm concerned, my skills are off the charts.

[Image: pckoxdy.png]

[Image: x7Xn745.png]

[Image: aZg02ro.png]
Source: The Elder Scrolls Wikia

For a full version of the above map that is
FIVE TIMES BIGGER, go here:
http://i.imgur.com/FiJ6U.jpg

So, let's talk a little bit about the importance of these new cities.
Great, there are 2 more cities in Cyrodiil that we get to explore, so what?

One problem that I think that many people have been worrying about in the back of their mind is how the Daggerfall Covenant is going to be able to be a major contender in the war. They appear to have less less members, less land in total, and fewer cities that they're close to that they can use as primary bases. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Daggerfall Covenant (Although I will be a Bosmer of the Aldmeri Dominion). I believe that the comments above are worries that the majority of the community has, because unbalanced alliances will result in one of them from gaining too much power.

The addition of Sutch and Sancre Tor dramatically levels the playing field for the number of cities that each faction is going to control in PvP. Overall, this will make the PvP aspect of TESO much more enjoyable, because there will be a large balance of power that exists between the 3 factions.

Ignoring the significance it gives to the PvP aspect of TESO, it will allow members of each faction to explore these brand new cities (Obviously it will be difficult in a PvP setting, along with the fact that the Aldmeri will have a hard time reaching Sancre Tor, and Ebonheart to reach Sutch) and experience Cyrodiil in a way that is truly unique to what we saw in Oblivion. However, it won't be so different in that veterans won't be able to recognize Cyrodiil, so it's a balance between adding in new content and having nostalgia from previous Elder Scrolls games.



To the readers: Thanks for reading this and learning about the new content we'll be seeing in TESO. I do want to quickly mention one problem that I'm facing, which is identifying the exact video in which I originally heard that 2 new cities will be added. With the evidence that I've provided, I don't believe that anyone will doubt it, but I'm still driving myself insane looking for that one original source.

I would be VERY appreciative if anyone happens to find the video while surfing Youtube. If you do, please post the link here so I can site it as a source.
This post was last modified: January 19th 2013 09:10 AM by Terminus Zaire
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Post #24534
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That´s fascinating! You really put much work in your search and in that Paint! I like that!

I have never heard about these two cities, but I never played Oblivion as well ;)

I can´t really say whether this is true or not, but I think they will have to implement some cities or maior military camps of the legion, to make Cyrodiil more "homogenous". This has to do with fairness, so that every faction has the same starting condition in the war for the ruby throne. But I hope they won´t just sprawl maior cities out of nowhere, but make them, for example, temporarily military bases of the imperial legion or things like that.


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #24537
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135
Faction & Race:
Ebonheart Pact (Nord)
Sancre Tor is the best old Fort/City in Cyrodiil,I just loved the quest when you search for the armor of Tiber Septim..


Zeymah of the Bromlokiir. Voth Ahkrin!
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Post #24538
Banned

867
Faction & Race:
Ebonheart Pact (Argonian)

Ok you got some good stuff compiled there. And i remember about sutch. Well. Im not sure if they going to add it in all honesty, simply because they wont add quite a few cities that havent been in oblivion to begin with (such as leyawin)
However it mightaswell be in. The position it is in is rather unimportant strategically with kvatch beeing a far more prominent city in the same area.

as for sancre tor. this is kind of a must have. Sancre Tor was one of the most important places during the Reman dynasty and got forgotten only after Tiber septims rise.
And while i doubt it will be represented as an entire city. i think it will be one of the main capturable Fortresses we will see.
Lets hope it will be portrayed in a way that has been suggested by the early lore.

Also i think that Sancre Tor, beeing the Crypt of the Reman Dynasty, might do for a great Public or even a PvP Dungeon.
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Post #24539
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Nice research and work @Terminus Zaire. I'm delighted you stopped lurking and shared this with us! I will keep an eye out for the video you are looking for. Though I'm sure someone will find it before I do.



Two people with a common goal can accomplish many things. Two people with a common enemy can accomplish even more. -Mr. Gold

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Post #24541
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257
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(January 19th 2013 09:26 AM)Sordak Wrote:  ...they wont add quite a few cities that havent been in oblivion to begin with (such as leyawin)...

This is news to me, could you please provide more information about how you learned that Leyawiin will not be available upon the release of TESO?

(January 19th 2013 09:26 AM)Sordak Wrote:  And while i doubt it will be represented as an entire city. I think it will be one of the main capturable Fortresses we will see.

I would have to disagree with this, due to the original statement that I heard while watching that video many months ago. I remember VERY specifically that he claimed that TWO brand new cities would be added into Cyrodiil, and Sancre Tor is the only other reference to a "city" that existed prior to the Third Era.

I will obviously change my opinion about this if anyone is able to find any information that might point to the existence of another city, but there is always a chance that the developers will be adding in a city we never heard of.

That being said, the new city would most definitely need to be in a location that assists the Daggerfall Covenant's war effort, and Sancre Tor does exactly that.

(January 19th 2013 09:26 AM)Sordak Wrote:  Also i think that Sancre Tor, being the Crypt of the Reman Dynasty, might do for a great Public or even a PvP Dungeon.

However, if my conclusions about Sancre Tor are incorrect, I believe that this would indeed be a fantastic addition to the PvP aspect of Cyrodiil as a public dungeon, and will be a very popular one too!
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Post #24543
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(January 19th 2013 09:40 AM)Terminus Zaire Wrote:  snip

i know the source you mean but i think you misunderstood it. the source mentions chaydinal, kvatch and skingrad and two other cities. But then it mentions, as these other cities, Hackdirk and one more. So i doubt they would actually mean those two.
As for the cities not includet: They never mentioned them beeing in the game, and they said that portions of cyrod wont make it into the game. It kinda makes sense as that portion of Cyrod is actually only between the EP and the AD and has no strategic significance for taking white-gold.

I know the lore on Sancre Tor. Believe me you dont have to educate me on that bit. But i still doubt itll be a full blown city.
Its been traditionally the second empires greatest fortress. And i think it will be includet as such.

Also no. my conclusions are not incorrect.
Your opinion =/= fact. Got that? Fine. With Public Dungeon i mean something like Darkness Falls. Sancre Tor always has been in relation to the Emporer. So i supose the dungeon crawl could dig up something crucial to taking the power in Cyrod.
we dont know what it will be now. that was a suggestion.

Also the DC needs no artificial help in their war effort. The Factions will balance out when the game launches and due to there beeing 3 of them there is a natural balance at all times. Especialy since they are a rather classic fantasy faction. people that dont play TES games will flock to it.
This post was last modified: January 19th 2013 10:07 AM by Sordak
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Post #24549
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(January 19th 2013 10:04 AM)Sordak Wrote:  The source mentions chaydinal, kvatch and skingrad and two other cities. But then it mentions, as these other cities, Hackdirt and one more.

I also came across this video, it discussed those cities along with the towns of Hackdirt and Cropsford. I was actually very confused about the addition of these two cities due to not only the relative locations of these two towns, but the RECORDED date of their founding.

Hackdirt was a small town created by, "Irlav Moslin, the founder of Hackdirt and author of the obscure text Bible of the Deep Ones." This means that the city was founded in the Third Era, and couldn't have possibly existed in the second during the Alliance War.

The second reference to Cropsford also greatly confused me, due to the fact that it was STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION during the Third Era, as observed from the quest Goblin Trouble, again being a major error in the timeline.

Even if I am incorrect in remembering that Cropsford was one of the towns mentioned during that video (I may have made a mistake, but I actually took the time to research Cropsford because I remembered that information about the town), the addition of Hackdirt would also violate the lore created prior to TESO.

(January 19th 2013 10:04 AM)Sordak Wrote:  As for the cities not included: They never mentioned them being in the game, and they said that portions of Cyrodiil wont make it into the game. It kinda makes sense as that portion of Cyrodiil is actually only between the EP and the AD and has no strategic significance for taking white-gold.

I do agree that this is a valid point. We do know that the majority of Black Marsh and Elsweyr will not be playable, and that therefore the city of Leyawiin will most likely also be off-limits due to the Knahaten Flu. What I'm wondering about is the Developers ability to restrict that area, and how the plan to actually implement it if they don't add Leyawiin into the game.

(January 19th 2013 10:04 AM)Sordak Wrote:  ...I still doubt itll be a full blown city. Its been traditionally the second empires greatest fortress.

I have found more references to Sancre Tor as a city, found from a story known as TorThe Legandary City of Sancre :

Quote:Alessia received the divine inspiration for her Slave Rebellion at Sancre Tor, and here she founded her holy city. Sancre Tor's mines provided some wealth, but the poor soils and harsh climate of the remote mountain site meant it must be supplied with food and goods from the Heartlands. Further, located on one of the few passes through the Jeralls, its fortunes were subject to the instability of relations with Skyrim. When relations were good with Skyrim, it prospered through trade and alliance. When relations were bad with Skyrim, it was vulnerable to siege and occupation by the Nords.

Originally, the city wasn't actually a fortress; it was simply turned into that due to the fact that it was so close to enemy territory, and it simply became a necessity. The text went on to explain how it did eventually become not only a mountain fortress, but also a major religious center that would have attracted many travelers to visit it, demanding and resulting in a local economy that normally accompanies all cities.

(January 19th 2013 10:04 AM)Sordak Wrote:  Also the DC needs no artificial help in their war effort. The Factions will balance out when the game launches and due to there being 3 of them there is a natural balance at all times. Especially since they are a rather classic fantasy faction. people that don't play TES games will flock to it.

The Daggerfall Covenant will indeed attract more players once it levels out, but it is currently the weakest of the 3 alliances that exist. The Covenant also lacks areas for future expansions to take place, because the majority of that area will be released upon launch. That being said, when looking at the map of Cyrodiil, it's rather difficult to place a foothold in the providence simply because there are no cities that closely boarder Cyrodiil and the Covenant. The addition of both Sutch and Sancre Tor eliminates this potential issue, and also stays true to the Elder Scrolls lore.
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Post #24551
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(January 19th 2013 10:04 AM)Sordak Wrote:  
(January 19th 2013 09:40 AM)Terminus Zaire Wrote:  snip

i know the source you mean but i think you misunderstood it. the source mentions chaydinal, kvatch and skingrad and two other cities. But then it mentions, as these other cities, Hackdirk and one more. So i doubt they would actually mean those two.
As for the cities not includet: They never mentioned them beeing in the game, and they said that portions of cyrod wont make it into the game. It kinda makes sense as that portion of Cyrod is actually only between the EP and the AD and has no strategic significance for taking white-gold.

I know the lore on Sancre Tor. Believe me you dont have to educate me on that bit. But i still doubt itll be a full blown city.
Its been traditionally the second empires greatest fortress. And i think it will be includet as such.

Also no. my conclusions are not incorrect.
Your opinion =/= fact. Got that? Fine. With Public Dungeon i mean something like Darkness Falls. Sancre Tor always has been in relation to the Emporer. So i supose the dungeon crawl could dig up something crucial to taking the power in Cyrod.
we dont know what it will be now. that was a suggestion.

Also the DC needs no artificial help in their war effort. The Factions will balance out when the game launches and due to there beeing 3 of them there is a natural balance at all times. Especialy since they are a rather classic fantasy faction. people that dont play TES games will flock to it.
I'm actually hoping for all the Forts that were in Oblivion,that they'll be cities or just forts that we need to capture.. And about the raiding,I'm pretty sure,that the public dungeons will be the Ayleid cities or some mines.
This post was last modified: January 19th 2013 10:49 AM by Ulfgar the Fearless


Zeymah of the Bromlokiir. Voth Ahkrin!
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Post #24554
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I agree that the whole thing with Cropsford and Hackdirk makes absoluteley no sense.
as ive mentioned before. They are butchering the lore quite a bit with that one.

On the topic of sancre tor: most of that is during the first era. In the Reman Dynasty Sancre Tor was used as a Bullwark against Skyrim. And usually as an oversized Stronghold. The city of Alessian times is for the most part fadet. As said, i know the lore of Sancre Tor.

Sutch would make sense. but id say kvatch is actually close enaugh.
As far as i know they mentioned that each faction has a "home zone" that beeing cheydinal for the EP, Skingrad for the AD and i think either Kvatch or Anvil for the DC. Id wager they will refit Cyrodiil to fit the gameplay purposes. The Keeps we see in Oblivion were all just ruins, so they can pretty much decide wich of them exist in the second era, wich are yet to be built and wich are already ruins. In that way i dont think there will be a large imbalance in gameplay terms.
This post was last modified: January 19th 2013 10:57 AM by Sordak
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Post #24557
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Very nice find, gotta say i agree with everything Termi is saying, sorry sordak.
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Post #24560
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wether or not you *agree* with facts is irrelevant.
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Post #24562
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Great find and good work on the research! Glad you shared this with us, it was a very interesting read.
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Post #24566
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(January 19th 2013 09:20 AM)Idriar Wrote:  That´s fascinating! You really put much work in your search and in that Paint! I like that!

(January 19th 2013 09:26 AM)Najla Wrote:  Nice research and work @Terminus Zaire. I'm delighted you stopped lurking and shared this with us! I will keep an eye out for the video you are looking for. Though I'm sure someone will find it before I do.

(January 19th 2013 11:13 AM)Panterra Arius Wrote:  Very nice find, gotta say i agree with everything Termi is saying...

(January 19th 2013 11:20 AM)Sponx Wrote:  Great find and good work on the research! Glad you shared this with us, it was a very interesting read.

Thank you very much everyone, this is only the first of MULTIPLE releases of information I plan to do over the next few weeks. Right now I'm already working on my next big release using pictures and information I've collected from dozens of videos and articles about TESO game mechanics.

You won't find very many posts by me, but if you do,
I can guarantee you they'll be worth the read!!!


Stealth Archery like you've never experienced before!
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Post #24568
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keep it going.
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