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The Formula: Successful Builds


Started by Nehemia
Post #96256
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It's been a while since I've written any topics, and after scouring through the forums again I keep noticing the trend of people imagining their builds from the concept of previous experience or what they enjoyed in other games. Which is understandable to some extent, not knowing the skill lines or what not.

Still, building a character in TESO will certainly be an interesting endeavor. We have four classes which all possess unique set of abilities. Yet each and everyone of them possess some of the following tools: A way to gain resources such as health, crowd control, survivability abilities, nukes, positioning skills, self-buffs, de-buffs and so forth. The difference is that all of the abilities work in a different way; Yet they share the common characteristics.
Knowing that we have a total of 10 abilities to use (2 hotbar sets); We have to carefully study which combinations of abilities can we create that would make the most efficient toon available for our designed role. Unfortunately after having theorycrafted multiple toons, I noticed a pattern:
Creating an efficient character on a theorycraft level completely ignores ones preferences for the sake of hauling the most efficient passives and activable skills.

I took dual-wielding to a character I'd thought it would never dual-wield, but there was this one ability that was a must to have to take the builds "effectiveness" to a increased level. Same happened with my elusive bane caster toon, he suddenly wore a healing staff just for the sake of one ability. (Nehemia's school of acronyms: Bane toon = A Shadowbane term used to describe character's designed solely for a siege).

Unfortunately this translates to the fact that our imagination will be somewhat limited, as much we'd like to imagine having a freedom to wear any armor and weapons we like. We are still stuck in the loop of hauling the passives and activates, which forces us to a certain decision. So now instead lack of class customization, we are stuck in limited role customization. Tanks will have their Sword & board for the sake of passives, stealth toons will have their primary armor as medium armor, casters will wear that light armor. Of course we can imagine breaking the mold, but currently the level of difficulty of successfully creating such toon will make it unique, and most likely: Gimped. And if they are not gimped; We still reaped the same benefits, just of different flavor. Your salmon steak will remain salmon steak, the seasoning and taste may vary; But on the nutrition level, its still the equal of a salmon.

So, what now? You choose a role, you choose a class that gives the most benefits for that said role or possesses few unique abilities you imagine you must have. Then you pick the weapon of choice according to what reaps the most benefits for you, same goes for armor selection. Then you naturally all the guild passives, possibly grab a skill or two from that selection to use. Naturally there are decisions such as "I must have a bow on my character" go ahead, if you want to be the one nuking with physical damage; But rationally thinking, that character is just a ranged nuker. It will be more than likely that there will be dozens and dozens of more efficient ranged nuker builds, as MMORPG history has taught us, you don't want to be on the bottom of the food-chain when it comes to ranged nukers. So you attempt to maximize your bow-wielding ranged nuker so he's up for the competition, resulting in a class choice, armor choice and ability selection to create the most efficient bow wielding nuker. You didn't choose your class, skills or armor and what not, your role chose them for you.

So in the end, your successful build isn't built on preferences, but on necessities. If you want to possess a successful build, loop around the pattern of synergy; What skills and passives increase the efficiency and effectiveness of your desired role the most. Repeat until you feel like there's nothing to improve. Your Stealth archer has morphed into something completely else in the end, but he fills the same role of a ranged nuker that promotes the element of surprise, but the real surprise is that from a bow wielding Nightblade, the character is suddenly a Sorcerer wearing a fire-based destruction staff that on paper just sounds vastly superior to what you originally thought. If you have the moments of doubt, as example "Blah, but I don't want to play a mage." What's the difference? You do the same role, you have the same idea of taking down your opponents, you just use different resources and possess different animations; You will still attack from that mouse of yours and spam those 1-5 buttons. You will still be a ranged nuker, no matter how the character is skinned.


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Post #97581
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So what are you trying to get at? You are right that if you wish to be competitive you will go for the optimal instead of preference. Are you saying that is bad? Should be removed? Fixed? I imagine the sub optimal preference builds will be for those who just want to play the game however they want without thinking of competing. In the end I imagine it will come to end game with the same optimal builds over and over. I don't think that is a bad thing but merely unavoidable due to the constraints of any game where performance matters. Who knows though? We could see those weird sub optimal builds excel at support roles outside of healing.
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Post #97588
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(September 9th 2013 03:27 AM)FruitPunchHero Wrote:  So what are you trying to get at? You are right that if you wish to be competitive you will go for the optimal instead of preference. Are you saying that is bad? Should be removed? Fixed? I imagine the sub optimal preference builds will be for those who just want to play the game however they want without thinking of competing. In the end I imagine it will come to end game with the same optimal builds over and over. I don't think that is a bad thing but merely unavoidable due to the constraints of any game where performance matters. Who knows though? We could see those weird sub optimal builds excel at support roles outside of healing.

I thought the message is quite clear:
"So in the end, your successful build isn't built on preferences, but on necessities. "

And to claim that the metagame of any game would remain the same, especially in MMORPG's. Take a look at Shadowbane, the game is already gone and only exists in forms of emulators, but the "competitive builds" when it comes to the games metagame still keeps on evolving. Its how the game is structured, and certainly not something that should be just swallowed. Many MMORPG's fall to the level that there's less than a handful of effective builds available, which is utterly boring.

It's only natural that the ones that seek to compete in MMORPG environment will attempt to build the most effective toons available, but this shouldn't mean we have to forsake preference of ourselves, as it is a matter of balance. Its meant to criticize, unfortunately I cannot just jump into writing an in-depth analysis out of it, nor would I bother, as it would just fall to deaf ears. Yet still, the whole topic was to make people understand that if they want to have a toon that isn't gimp at this game, they need to stop looking at their "What do I want" and focus on the real deal.


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Post #97591
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(September 9th 2013 06:32 AM)Nehemia Wrote:  
(September 9th 2013 03:27 AM)FruitPunchHero Wrote:  So what are you trying to get at? You are right that if you wish to be competitive you will go for the optimal instead of preference. Are you saying that is bad? Should be removed? Fixed? I imagine the sub optimal preference builds will be for those who just want to play the game however they want without thinking of competing. In the end I imagine it will come to end game with the same optimal builds over and over. I don't think that is a bad thing but merely unavoidable due to the constraints of any game where performance matters. Who knows though? We could see those weird sub optimal builds excel at support roles outside of healing.

I thought the message is quite clear:
"So in the end, your successful build isn't built on preferences, but on necessities. "

And to claim that the metagame of any game would remain the same, especially in MMORPG's. Take a look at Shadowbane, the game is already gone and only exists in forms of emulators, but the "competitive builds" when it comes to the games metagame still keeps on evolving. Its how the game is structured, and certainly not something that should be just swallowed. Many MMORPG's fall to the level that there's less than a handful of effective builds available, which is utterly boring.

It's only natural that the ones that seek to compete in MMORPG environment will attempt to build the most effective toons available, but this shouldn't mean we have to forsake preference of ourselves, as it is a matter of balance. Its meant to criticize, unfortunately I cannot just jump into writing an in-depth analysis out of it, nor would I bother, as it would just fall to deaf ears. Yet still, the whole topic was to make people understand that if they want to have a toon that isn't gimp at this game, they need to stop looking at their "What do I want" and focus on the real deal.

I agree that the "What do I want" mindset will not work endgame. Also my statement of seeing the same optimal builds was referring to the players not so much to the development of those builds. Let me ask you this. Do you think there is a way for late game preference builds to ever be competitive?
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Post #97606
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@FruitBunchHero actually, I do believe there is a way, but unfortunately that is relatively out of our reach as the system alone should be a lot more complex (assigning stats to ex. Str, Dex, Sta, End instead of Hp/mana/sta) and so forth. This system as we have currently, well here's to hope individuals skill can substitute the sheer power given from toon building.


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Post #97609
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What do you plan on playing? Tank? DPS? Healer? How do you plan on getting the most out of it? Are you going to stick to a specific skill line or try to pick up the best skills from each line?
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Post #97792
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(September 9th 2013 10:04 AM)FruitPunchHero Wrote:  What do you plan on playing? Tank? DPS? Healer? How do you plan on getting the most out of it? Are you going to stick to a specific skill line or try to pick up the best skills from each line?

I have theorycrafted one build for fun to myself, and if one should call it something, I'd say its a "casterblade." But when we get into ingame I'll probably just roll one of the respective Spec toons our guild creates.

For example, when looking for a damage amplifier, I did the following:
SameTypeofSkill1 -> See passive benefits
SameTypeofSkill2 -> See passive benefits
Pick the skill that hands out better passives.

In this case, I chose Nightblades own damage amplifier over utilizing Destruction staff, so I could reap the passive benefits from Nightblade skill tree, whilst I could get the passives of Restoration staff, and was capable of completely skipping the destruction part.


Naturally we don't know the morphs yet and what not, but currently on Nightblade you pretty much want to have at least 1 skill from all the 3 skill trees, because there are multiple passives that are just too much to skip, same goes for few of the other classes.
This post was last modified: September 9th 2013 11:56 PM by Nehemia


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Post #97817
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Good point, I will take a note when I make my build.


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Post #99082
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My question may be out of topic but I just wanted to know, does each weapon have its own skill line? Or does each weapon type have its own skill line (for example hammers have a different skill line than swords) or each 1h 2h have different skill lines? Same thing goes for armor, does each armor set or armor pieces ( helmet, torso, legs etc) have its own skill line?


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Post #99098
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(September 15th 2013 08:15 PM)AmalGhamlooch Wrote:  My question may be out of topic but I just wanted to know, does each weapon have its own skill line? Or does each weapon type have its own skill line (for example hammers have a different skill line than swords) or each 1h 2h have different skill lines? Same thing goes for armor, does each armor set or armor pieces ( helmet, torso, legs etc) have its own skill line?

Each weapon type has its own skill line, which consists of both activables and passives. However with passives, there are more than a few passive nodes that give different benefits to different weapons, for example passives for a two-handed axe grant different bonuses than those of two-handed swords in certain cases of passives (Note that this only affects to certain individual passive skills, and not all of them). The highest difference can be found from destruction staves.

Armors have universal skill lines, where the benefits are calculated based on the amount of items worn in that category. So Light armor, Medium armor and Heavy armor are the categories (3 skill lines) but when the benefits are granted by piece, mix-matching a set gives you different sets of passives. For example you can get 5 pieces of Light armor, and 2 pieces of medium armor to get 5x the LA passives and 2x the MA passives minus the set passive (wearing 5 pieces of certain armor type).


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Post #99115
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@Nehemia oh I get it now, thanks ;)


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