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Add-ons?


Started by Lippert
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(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote:
(February 16th 2013, 10:38 AM)Sordak Wrote: Spreadsheet gaming is boring. Would you argue with that? Would you say WoWs raids are more enjoyable due to addons? More thirlling? More skillfull? Id wager not many would say that. But it is required. Shifting the focus away from the gameplay itself towards the addons.

I have no argument there, yes it can be a little boring but at the end-game raiding level is some what of a necessity nowadays, Would you argue with that? Yes sure i would like my raiding to have more of a thrill, but as for being skillful there is no add-on out there that gives that, that all comes down to the man behind the machine. Sordak i don't want to argue this point but addons do not shift the focus away from the game-play, i still spend time researching the encounters in the forums and have been up to the early hours of the morning with the raid group,
like many others receiving wipe after wipe until things click within the group and you achieve something special, the encounter still gives me that excitement and the when you down a heroic raid boss for the first time, you get that level of satisfaction.

Watch the pronouns, there. Don't say "you" when you're speaking for yourself - because while I can't speak for the person that was directed at, I can say that for me: if I have to read spoilers and have third-party software giving me advice throughout the process, it feels somewhat less than satisfactory.

And y'know, it wouldn't bother me that other people don't feel the same way if I only had to deal with them on the forums. But the trouble is, the tools that cater to them tend to skew the social environment in their favor and suddenly I'm left with either
a) giving in to playing it their way just to have a group to play with
b) giving up on group content almost completely, and playing solo. Which is sorta supported up until so-called endgame at which point it becomes completely unviable.

Meanwhile, the devs feel pressured to cater even further to them; creating a feedback loop on the social environment (as folks outside the catered-to crowd get driven out), throwing out mediocre content updates that are just more of the same ol' same ol' in order to keep up, and skewing the game further towards the gear-crunching raid-memorizing grindfest that eventually even you admit gets dull after awhile.

3 months, I predict, before most would decide that if getting the same general experience in Tamriel as they were in Azeroth there that they'd rather be doing it on familiar territory where nostalgia and the old acquaintances who stayed behind can fill in for the lack of lasting satisfaction. And then we've got yet another "launched strong but failed to retain" game being marked as a failure.

(February 16th 2013, 09:57 AM)Guild Master Wrote:
(February 16th 2013, 02:02 PM)Venitas the Heretic Wrote:
(February 16th 2013, 09:57 AM)Guild Master Wrote: when a 2 minute download can track this for you, showing you who and which classes are the more effective builds, what spells do the most abilities etc, this allows you as a raid leader to have faster more productive encounters.

I read that as "spend less time playing the game."

yes and as ive already mentioned in my post i speed up my gaming to fit it in around my family as do the rest of the guild who also are family men. i wander if those who use addons are family men, people with responsibilities other than that of a pc game. those that use them to speed things up to allow them their gaming fix so to speak, and get them back to the real world and not the virtual one.

Those are the very casuals you came off as dissmissive towards earlier for not having 'pride' in the game but wanting the same rewards.

So I'm a bit baffled as to why you implied before that they don't deserve those same rewards if they can't put in the same time, and now say the exact opposite.

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote: no i would beg to differ i dont think your point is clear in the slightest, when youve played a game for over 5+years you will find you have to repeat the same quests each time you level up, and the content becomes boring, i myself have 6 level 90s, 3 85s and 1 level 60 in WoW, meaning i have done the same damn quests 10times with different alts.

Welcome to the Themepark.

Though at least it sorta preps you for the endgame: where you'll just be doing the same damn raids even *more* often, whether to gear up for the new content or because there's SFA else to do while waiting for the new content. (Except maybe grind arena-PvP, if you're into that.)

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote: Experiencing those Quests for the first time was a exciting and enjoyable, even the second time i had forgot some of them, but when you work with several characters you soon feel the strain of completing the same quests over and over and thats why its called a grind, i am sure there are millions of gamers who understand this and can relate.

I would again ask, though: why is the solution "allow third-party mods that truncate the grind" instead of considering either
a) remove that grindy crap entirely and just start at the endgame
b) make it less bloody grindy in the first place

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote:
(February 16th 2013, 01:07 PM)Avidus Wrote: However I know for a fact, the best of the guilds test the content WITHOUT mods.

yes test, not complete, and yes there are some amazing guilds out there that can probably do this without addons,

Some of the mods you described earlier would pretty much be dependent on the existence of such guilds, in order to have the data to stay relevant.

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote: but why stop there why not ban Ventrillo or Teamspeak, that wasn't planned by the developers, so why do guilds use that, it gives them an advantage, its speeds up communication. I played the game it was meant to be played then changed my game style to fit my gaming around my family, i am 27 not some kid that just sits behind his computer, i have to find a balance and addons help me speed this up and achieve this balance, would you begrudge me that????

Given that the trickle-down effects of such things makes the games a shittier experience for me, then yes: I would.

Or rather, I would if it weren't for the fact that you've already got way more games catering to your playstyle than I have, so it's not actually begrudging you anything. It's asking you to leave a little *something* for the rest of us.

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote:
(February 16th 2013, 01:07 PM)Avidus Wrote: Also the stats for how many times those mods have been downloaded. Is more than the WoW player base has ever had. Its causes by the same people downloading them several times.

Well i think that's pretty much obvious, lol, but thankyou for bringing that info to our attention buddy, and please grow a pair,

Well, so much for the passive-aggressive attacks. Also, thanks for introducing chauvinism back into the thread.

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote: Again there nothing wrong with addons there available so use them.

If this were a single-player game, I'd agree.
It's not, any add-ons that does anything more than aesthetic changes create trickle-down effects that impact everyone else's games, and often those are in ways only beneficial to particular subsets of the gaming base.

Ergo, there's plenty potentially wrong with add-ons.

(February 16th 2013, 02:44 PM)Guild Master Wrote: Don't get the anger this topic has caused and the personal attacks people feel like doing, not just in this one but i've read ones in other topics two like peoples opinions on orcs etc, its a game for god sake, and people have real commitments away from there virtual ones, so in closing yes i use add-ons and if they do not get made in teso, i am fine with that, however if they do, you can guarantee people will download them and consequently i will also have to to complete in a competitive environment. Good luck everyone come launch i look forward to stand shoulder to shoulder with the brothers of the Daggerfall Authority, or meeting my opposition on the Battlefield

Ah, crap.
I won't be able to gank you after all. Bloody locked factions.

EDIT: that last line was meant to be in jest. If it wasn't taken that way, then I apologize for any offense it may have generated.
(I'd delete it, but that always feels like dodging accountability to me.)
This post was last modified: February 17th 2013, 01:20 AM by Venitas the Heretic
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<Removed this post, although it wont let me delete it>
This post was last modified: February 16th 2013, 08:16 PM by Guild Master


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[quote='Sordak' pid='40615' dateline='1361056021']
i can see it but at the end of the day.
Its kind of bad design if the leveling is so boring that you actually want to speed through it.
While i can see that it gets boring with alts (i know that, i played my share of MMOs) i think some of the game design in ESO (namely different factions with completely different leveling experiences, and choices throughout the quest-lines) should give you some replay value.

I just don't feel that cutting away on the overall quality of the endgame experience is a price i want to pay to have convenience features that were not envisioned by the Devs.
Choice is good. But as ive pointed out many times before. There is no choice in MMORPGs if you want to stay competitive. Go full on, or drop.
[/quote/]

the problem with that though Sordak is how are new people supposed to join, rather, why would they want to? This is how good games die; (Dark Age of Camelot if i remember correctly died like this) having the mentality of "go pro or gtfo" will give new players a disgusted look on their face. Another example is like Guild Master, he has a family and can't play all day like some of us. We need some sort of "dumb down feature" for lack of better words. I don't believe that add-ons are the answer, and i truly don't know what they could do. If they make it kinda easy when lvling then you "go pro or forever stay in the minor's" when you hit 50, then it'll be the issue WoW had. were asking for a middle that Blizzard has been trying to accomplish for years now. A filter causes the same issue.



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Post #40797
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If you don't want to use add-ons you guys don't have to. Just because the game would have add-ons would not force you to use them. For competitive pvpers(pvers as well) add-ons provide a great amount of help.

Add-on are just cosmetic features that allow players to organize their UI's the way they want to and a few other things.
This post was last modified: February 16th 2013, 11:12 PM by Artarius Aetius


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Post #40800
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ooh! they could make non add-on dungeons and raids. Not sure how that would work, but it's an idea. what do you think?



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(February 16th 2013, 11:13 PM)weezr_wasari Wrote: ooh! they could make non add-on dungeons and raids. Not sure how that would work, but it's an idea. what do you think?

huh?


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Post #40811
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haha, i mean restricting use of add-ons in certain dungeons, or a different mode.



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(February 16th 2013, 11:22 PM)weezr_wasari Wrote: haha, i mean restricting use of add-ons in certain dungeons, or a different mode.

why? add-ons are just cosmetic adjustments to your ui, combat text, etc.
This post was last modified: February 16th 2013, 11:26 PM by Malavius


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Post #40818
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Not all of then, some make it easier to fight bosses, like in WoW there was one (cant remember what it was called.) where it tells you what the boss is doing when it's doing it. basically cheating.



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(February 16th 2013, 11:27 PM)weezr_wasari Wrote: Not all of then, some make it easier to fight bosses, like in WoW there was one (cant remember what it was called.) where it tells you what the boss is doing when it's doing it. basically cheating.

I don't see the big deal with it. If your more concerned about personal pride don't use them but other people(like myself) just want to get the dungeon done to get the gear.


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:) Not about pride, i just like a hard fight once in a while. I'm somewhat playing devils advicut in this. I used addons in WoW and loved them, so maybe they would be good. but... if you want the full hardcore experience, there should be a mode for it, i believe. otherwise, pile on your add-ons!



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Why would you want more distractions on your screen? Of course they have it down to a science. Everything you look at is a form of science. They're making it basic and simplistic so all players can understand. Also, not every player is gonna want to use a add-on to the game. Why add any variations to the standard Elder Scrolls feel?


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^ genius.



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(February 16th 2013, 11:08 PM)weezr_wasari Wrote: the problem with that though Sordak is how are new people supposed to join, rather, why would they want to? This is how good games die; (Dark Age of Camelot if i remember correctly died like this) having the mentality of "go pro or gtfo" will give new players a disgusted look on their face. Another example is like Guild Master, he has a family and can't play all day like some of us. We need some sort of "dumb down feature" for lack of better words.

The trouble with that is, it doesn't work out that way. You throw in something to make it more 'expedient' for the casuals, but it gets exploited by the so-called 'hardcores' who aren't really hardcore, just 8hrs/day players looking to double their gear-runs. And then everyone who feels a need to 'keep up with the joneses' as well, just to keep up. And then it becomes 'standard expectation,' so now anyone who wants to join a raid (or pvp!) group has to use it if they want a slot.

And then the mid-cores and soft hardcores* all complain that the game has been 'dumbed down' and gotten 'too easy' - and blame the devs instead of looking at their own overuse of these convenience-utilities. Player satisfaction starts to dip, and the devs either let it slide (and risk bleeding customers) or ramp up the mobs to make it more 'challenging' again. End result being, at best, that you're more or less back where you started (with casuals/family unable to access content that's been balanced towards those who just have more raw time available) but with more UI overhead.

* soft hardcore: a term I coined just now for those who put in hardcore hours, but lag behind the top tier. Lack of better word, hope it doesn't confuse or come off condescending.

And FTR, this is referring strictly to the threatmeter/raid-warning/node-mapping type stuff. Purely cosmetic mods that don't add anything to the UI aren't a problem.

(February 16th 2013, 11:11 PM)Artarius Aetius Wrote: If you don't want to use add-ons you guys don't have to. Just because the game would have add-ons would not force you to use them. For competitive pvpers(pvers as well) add-ons provide a great amount of help.

For competitive players, the ones that aren't purely cosmetic become like blood-doping or other forms of artificial performance-enhancement in competitive sport. Either you ban it (recognizing some cheaters will still slip through) or it becomes effectively mandatory to play at that level.

Unfortunately for the rest of us, the game is balanced towards the whole of the community. If 'performance enhancers' start becoming the de-facto assumption for the competitive players, it skews how the game is balanced for everyone.
This post was last modified: February 17th 2013, 01:15 AM by Venitas the Heretic
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(February 16th 2013, 11:30 PM)Malavius Wrote: I don't see the big deal with it. If your more concerned about personal pride don't use them but other people(like myself) just want to get the dungeon done to get the gear.

It is not that easy to not use them. Many guilds in wow stated specifically that you need certain addons to be able to join them in raids. If you didn't have the addon, you were simply not allowed to raid and that is even understandable, because stuff like deadly boss mods or in pvp gladius made the game so much easier. But that is exactly why most people don't want to have addons in eso to begin with. Also if you just want to get the dungeon done to get better gear you are better of playing wow than eso.
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