Being "evil" in TESO

So, something that has come under my attention after re-visiting my character in skyrim is that I had gotten the achievement to attain bounty in all the holds. Now, my guy was a pretty evil dude, he stole from people, assassinated emperors and people at weddings, etc. . Which worries me with TESO .. can I REALLY be "evil" ?

Can I kill any NPC I find with the hopes that everyone turns against me and I become an outlaw? Because, honestly, I don't see an implementation of being an "assassin" which everyone wants to be without the aspect of being able to assassinate anyone I want to.

Honestly, If I can't kill my fellow orc or breton but gain a bounty over my head, then how in the world will there be any immersion into the dark brotherhood which has been said there will be? How will there be any consequence other than "mission failed, go and re-do the quest" ? I want the anxiety of knowing that if I don't successfully assassinate this person I'm going to have to make a dash away from guards, players, and who knows what else. Perhaps this could even add the option of assassinating a player emperor that makes it to the throne? So we could have the anxiety of killing a player emperor ( even if he belongs to your faction ) and the emperor could have the anxiety of people trying to kill him.

Idk, I don't see how they are going to make any form of stealth assassination or stealing missions without a large consequence if you fail them, AKA a bounty system.

well this beeing an MMORPG you cant just go round beeing a lunatic. its not a sandbox afterall.
BUT you will be getting a Dark brotherhood questline after release, theyve also spoken about a "morality system" of sorts so id suppose you could be in a pretty good spot with a more morally questionable character.

then again beeing upright evil doesnt realy work in TES. Most TES villains so far have not been *evil* but rather had their very own ideas of good this includes Mankar Camoran and Dagoth Ur and arguably also Aldiun.
Miraak was just power hungry but he definitly belongs more to the "villain" side of things.

So yeah. beeing a card carrying villain or a lunatic that slaughters other for no reason. No.
A proper Dark Brotherhood assasin? very much so!

(February 25th 2013, 12:16 PM)Sordak Wrote: well this beeing an MMORPG you cant just go round beeing a lunatic. its not a sandbox afterall.
BUT you will be getting a Dark brotherhood questline after release, theyve also spoken about a "morality system" of sorts so id suppose you could be in a pretty good spot with a more morally questionable character.

then again beeing upright evil doesnt realy work in TES. Most TES villains so far have not been *evil* but rather had their very own ideas of good this includes Mankar Camoran and Dagoth Ur and arguably also Aldiun.
Miraak was just power hungry but he definitly belongs more to the "villain" side of things.

So yeah. beeing a card carrying villain or a lunatic that slaughters other for no reason. No.
A proper Dark Brotherhood assasin? very much so!

Haha, I don't just mean running around being a lunatic killing people. I just mean that without some sort of bounty system, there will be very little feel of a consequence to failing a mission for thieves or assassins.

Also, being evil doesn't have to come with a reason. I'm not saying it helps to have one, but even so. . I think it adds more variety to a game when you allow players to do what they want. Honestly, I can't ever see being able to kill NPCs allowable in an MMO as people would do it just to troll others so they couldn't get quests. Again, you'd have to make a really good bounty type system. Still, it isn't so much for that as it is just to make people who do the quests that get you to do things against the laws of the land. If done without care then when you fail them it's a bigger consequence then just "quest failed"

Not to mention I really, really, really want to be able to kill people on my faction that are annoying me. Lol xD

(February 25th 2013, 12:26 PM)Kilivin Wrote:

(February 25th 2013, 12:16 PM)Sordak Wrote: well this beeing an MMORPG you cant just go round beeing a lunatic. its not a sandbox afterall.
BUT you will be getting a Dark brotherhood questline after release, theyve also spoken about a "morality system" of sorts so id suppose you could be in a pretty good spot with a more morally questionable character.

then again beeing upright evil doesnt realy work in TES. Most TES villains so far have not been *evil* but rather had their very own ideas of good this includes Mankar Camoran and Dagoth Ur and arguably also Aldiun.
Miraak was just power hungry but he definitly belongs more to the "villain" side of things.

So yeah. beeing a card carrying villain or a lunatic that slaughters other for no reason. No.
A proper Dark Brotherhood assasin? very much so!

Haha, I don't just mean running around being a lunatic killing people. I just mean that without some sort of bounty system, there will be very little feel of a consequence to failing a mission for thieves or assassins.

Not to mention I really, really, really want to be able to kill people on my faction that are annoying me. Lol xD

well thats stuff for a sandbox game realy. that does not belong into a themepark like that. all it will result in is annoying stuff like ganking.

So many things may look good on paper but in reality they are just REALY awfull.

You couldn't kill any NPC in Skyrim (much to my dismay); it would be even tougher to implement in an MMO.

Many NPCs CAN be killed, though. Z-Max said PvE areas will be phased according to how you have performed in certain quests.

Anyhow, if you mean morally evil in terms of sinister quests and actions, then yes; if you mean no essential characters, and everyone in-game is killable, then no, probably not. Nor do I expect you'll be able to gank people in PvE areas... that would lead to way too much griefing, I expect.

This is one of those things we will have to bite the bullet on when it comes to what can be done in TES and what can be done in TESO. MMOs are just built differently, as Sordak pointed out. There is no way you will ever be able to kill your own faction in an MMO, it would be pure chaos just to go to a vendor.

There should at be essential unkillable and untouchable NPCs like traders, quest givers, skill teachers etc. But there has been said that there will be the main quest of the Ebonheart Pact in which you have to deal with a city under undead attack. There you can choose to either help the troops at a fort or at the harbour. The ones you help nor are lost. That is what I recall.

But when we have such attacks it woud be realistic to have unnamed or randomized NPCs running through the city, making it look like a place where actually someone lives. They could be killed by mobs coming to close to the city. It was never said that cities will be instanced. But still there are villages without city wall. It would be thinkable that these villages get attacked and killed randomly by somekind of monsters... like the random dragon attacks in Skyrim, but here Dreughs, "Spider ladies" Mephala daedras or undead. And then other random NPCs spawn.

And yess. If you ever feel like kill this poor nameless and faceless people, go ahead. For the hatred of the guards, a bounty and being seen as an enemy for everyother player of course. With extra XP for your death, criminal scum! ;)

(February 26th 2013, 09:51 AM)Idriar Wrote: There should at be essential unkillable and untouchable NPCs like traders, quest givers, skill teachers etc. But there has been said that there will be the main quest of the Ebonheart Pact in which you have to deal with a city under undead attack. There you can choose to either help the troops at a fort or at the harbour. The ones you help nor are lost. That is what I recall.

But when we have such attacks it woud be realistic to have unnamed or randomized NPCs running through the city, making it look like a place where actually someone lives. They could be killed by mobs coming to close to the city. It was never said that cities will be instanced. But still there are villages without city wall. It would be thinkable that these villages get attacked and killed randomly by somekind of monsters... like the random dragon attacks in Skyrim, but here Dreughs, "Spider ladies" Mephala daedras or undead. And then other random NPCs spawn.

And yess. If you ever feel like kill this poor nameless and faceless people, go ahead. For the hatred of the guards, a bounty and being seen as an enemy for everyother player of course. With extra XP for your death, criminal scum! ;)

its not a sandbox. and therfor it will also not work this way.
Always think: this system WILL get exploited.

Yea honestly we just have to wait and see they may have something in mind I hope for there to be a little more consequence but they also can't derail the game by letting everyone be a murderer because sadly if it was a few people who would do it that would be fun but it would not it would be enough that the grief from never getting quest would drive a lot of people to quit the game. About kiling people in your own faction that is a double edge sword yes it would be kill because it would add some very nice depth but then they would have to allow maybe faction changes or other things in that order to compliment it that may get over complicated. In the end killing people in your own faction would be nice minus the fact everyone would constantly be worried about the dagger in their back ya know, and it might prevent players from trusting or helping one another.

(February 26th 2013, 09:56 AM)Sordak Wrote:

(February 26th 2013, 09:51 AM)Idriar Wrote: There should at be essential unkillable and untouchable NPCs like traders, quest givers, skill teachers etc. But there has been said that there will be the main quest of the Ebonheart Pact in which you have to deal with a city under undead attack. There you can choose to either help the troops at a fort or at the harbour. The ones you help nor are lost. That is what I recall.

But when we have such attacks it woud be realistic to have unnamed or randomized NPCs running through the city, making it look like a place where actually someone lives. They could be killed by mobs coming to close to the city. It was never said that cities will be instanced. But still there are villages without city wall. It would be thinkable that these villages get attacked and killed randomly by somekind of monsters... like the random dragon attacks in Skyrim, but here Dreughs, "Spider ladies" Mephala daedras or undead. And then other random NPCs spawn.

And yess. If you ever feel like kill this poor nameless and faceless people, go ahead. For the hatred of the guards, a bounty and being seen as an enemy for everyother player of course. With extra XP for your death, criminal scum! ;)

its not a sandbox. and therfor it will also not work this way.
Always think: this system WILL get exploited.

How exactly would this get exploited? I can see the whole killing your own faction as being a possibly bad thing, but how exactly would being able to kill random NPCs get "exploited" ?

(February 27th 2013, 11:37 AM)Kilivin Wrote:

(February 26th 2013, 09:56 AM)Sordak Wrote:

(February 26th 2013, 09:51 AM)Idriar Wrote: There should at be essential unkillable and untouchable NPCs like traders, quest givers, skill teachers etc. But there has been said that there will be the main quest of the Ebonheart Pact in which you have to deal with a city under undead attack. There you can choose to either help the troops at a fort or at the harbour. The ones you help nor are lost. That is what I recall.

But when we have such attacks it woud be realistic to have unnamed or randomized NPCs running through the city, making it look like a place where actually someone lives. They could be killed by mobs coming to close to the city. It was never said that cities will be instanced. But still there are villages without city wall. It would be thinkable that these villages get attacked and killed randomly by somekind of monsters... like the random dragon attacks in Skyrim, but here Dreughs, "Spider ladies" Mephala daedras or undead. And then other random NPCs spawn.

And yess. If you ever feel like kill this poor nameless and faceless people, go ahead. For the hatred of the guards, a bounty and being seen as an enemy for everyother player of course. With extra XP for your death, criminal scum! ;)

its not a sandbox. and therfor it will also not work this way.
Always think: this system WILL get exploited.

How exactly would this get exploited? I can see the whole killing your own faction as being a possibly bad thing, but how exactly would being able to kill random NPCs get "exploited" ?

people would constantly do it and the world would be empty.

(February 27th 2013, 11:42 AM)Sordak Wrote:

(February 27th 2013, 11:37 AM)Kilivin Wrote:

(February 26th 2013, 09:56 AM)Sordak Wrote:

(February 26th 2013, 09:51 AM)Idriar Wrote: There should at be essential unkillable and untouchable NPCs like traders, quest givers, skill teachers etc. But there has been said that there will be the main quest of the Ebonheart Pact in which you have to deal with a city under undead attack. There you can choose to either help the troops at a fort or at the harbour. The ones you help nor are lost. That is what I recall.

But when we have such attacks it woud be realistic to have unnamed or randomized NPCs running through the city, making it look like a place where actually someone lives. They could be killed by mobs coming to close to the city. It was never said that cities will be instanced. But still there are villages without city wall. It would be thinkable that these villages get attacked and killed randomly by somekind of monsters... like the random dragon attacks in Skyrim, but here Dreughs, "Spider ladies" Mephala daedras or undead. And then other random NPCs spawn.

And yess. If you ever feel like kill this poor nameless and faceless people, go ahead. For the hatred of the guards, a bounty and being seen as an enemy for everyother player of course. With extra XP for your death, criminal scum! ;)

its not a sandbox. and therfor it will also not work this way.
Always think: this system WILL get exploited.

How exactly would this get exploited? I can see the whole killing your own faction as being a possibly bad thing, but how exactly would being able to kill random NPCs get "exploited" ?

people would constantly do it and the world would be empty.

How is that an exploit? To "exploit" something is to do something for a benefit. The only "benefit" in killing people or NPCs is to put a bounty on your head and make everyone after you for gold, which I don't see as a benefit in any way. Take Archlord for example, they had a very similar bounty system but only with players. People didn't go around killing their allies EVERY SINGLE time they saw them. Reason why, is because if they did, then they get a gigantic bounty of their head causing the whole server to be after them, AND they can't go in NPC towns or guards will go after them and own their faces off.

I ask for this not as a something people would do, but something you could do to add depth to the game. Again, just because people CAN do something doesn't mean they will. Just because people can kill in real life doesn't mean eeeveryone goes around killing other people. That's, again, why you make a bounty system or outlaw system. Possibly even make it to where outlaws can team together with other outlaws and form gangs and BAM you have the wild west. xD

Personally, I just want more depth in assassination missions if I am to ever fail them. Because, personally, I think it's ridiculous to just get a "mission failed" when I'm standing in an illegal area probably doing illegal things, yet nobody reacts at all. That's going to COMPLETELY throw everyone out of the immersion of any stealth mission.

(February 27th 2013, 12:25 PM)Kilivin Wrote: snip

wrong thats not what an exploit is.
an exploit is any exploitative (see?) behaviour enabled by either a loophole or a stupid design descision. like that one.

You have a severe case of "dem miscalculations" on MMORPG players.
Of course people would do it. People do it all the time. 90% of the skyrim player base has been slaughtering NPCs for shits n giggles. There is NO point in having this feature.
and let me tell you one thing: IF you can do it, people WILL do it all the time.
This is the rule of online games. Get used to it.

Yes you would naturally say. Its like saying "you could cyber in the public in an MMORPG and people do-" yes they do it all the fucking time.
And they will do this all the fucking time too. Because just like you they would find it awsome and hillarious and edgy fo their character to do such a thing.

Instant check if an idea doesnt work: Do you have to think like a reasonable human beeing for it to work? if the answer to this is yes, it does not work.

On Stealth mission: i doubt there will be any, and if there wll be any, they will be instanced. so maybe you can kill people there. but they will most likeley be enemy guards or something.

(February 27th 2013, 12:36 PM)Sordak Wrote:

(February 27th 2013, 12:25 PM)Kilivin Wrote: snip

wrong thats not what an exploit is.
an exploit is any exploitative (see?) behaviour enabled by either a loophole or a stupid design descision. like that one.

You have a severe case of "dem miscalculations" on MMORPG players.
Of course people would do it. People do it all the time. 90% of the skyrim player base has been slaughtering NPCs for shits n giggles. There is NO point in having this feature.
and let me tell you one thing: IF you can do it, people WILL do it all the time.
This is the rule of online games. Get used to it.

Yes you would naturally say. Its like saying "you could cyber in the public in an MMORPG and people do-" yes they do it all the fucking time.
And they will do this all the fucking time too. Because just like you they would find it awsome and hillarious and edgy fo their character to do such a thing.

Instant check if an idea doesnt work: Do you have to think like a reasonable human beeing for it to work? if the answer to this is yes, it does not work.

On Stealth mission: i doubt there will be any, and if there wll be any, they will be instanced. so maybe you can kill people there. but they will most likeley be enemy guards or something.

I see. I can definitely understand the frustration behind having something like killing your own players or quest givers. However, people have said that there won't be any insta-kill moves so the idea of "ganking" someone won't work. Unless of course you go by the WoW approach to ruining someone's day by waiting for them to get low on health then kill them. Even so. . you're waiting for a long time for that to happen then they whine for a 1 min walk back to their corpse. I dunno, personally, from playing Archlord and having that system in place, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. It worked in that game and people didn't go around killing each other aalll the time. Topic has become subjective at this point /end_discussion

(February 28th 2013, 09:27 AM)Kilivin Wrote: i have never played an MMORPG

OH RIGHT how foolish of me!

clearly because there is no instant killing this means there is no ganking of me.
I am very sorry thanks for clearing up that mistake of me.