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Class Confusion


Started by Jarl_Norend
Post #17009
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(December 10th 2012, 09:42 AM)macmicool Wrote: I can't wait for the option to make a hybrid class just like in the single player games. I've always wanted to make a viable mage tank. I guess we will see...

You are getting that, Matt Firor himself mentioned he likes to play mage with 2h sword and using blink to close in on the enemy


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Post #17013
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The real question is what level of effectiveness your abilities/perks have with a unique build.

I personally doubt that we'll get as much freedom as we're thinking. We have a lot, don't get me wrong. Firor did say that a mage will be able to carry a 2h and blink in to close distance (we can read into that and extrapolate a whole host of scenariors, most of them are likely false). But I think that there will be incentives to keep mages throwing fireballs and warriors swinging a sword. Plus perks that might affect your equipment choices -- like a perk that makes you do more fire damage while wearing X. If this is the case, you'll certainly be able to play your unique mage+warrior+healer+assassin, but your effectiveness at it compared to what your perks do is a different story.

Don't set yourselves up for disappointment. We're getting a lot of freedom, yeah. But keep things in perspective. They need to balance this crap too.


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Post #17014
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It's obvious that some builds will be better than others in terms of dps and elitists will probably claim to have the best class that makes them a better player. I just hope this won't go on too much.
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Post #17082
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cookie cutters are part of the mmo cultures, you cant weed them out. you can only hope for a good balance to be made, so there are more then just two cookie cutter builds.
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Post #17210
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(December 10th 2012, 02:20 PM)Sordak Wrote: cookie cutters are part of the mmo cultures, you cant weed them out. you can only hope for a good balance to be made, so there are more then just two cookie cutter builds.

The best part is, in most MMORPG's, the cookie cutters are the "average joes" builds, and far from being better than others. The trick is that they are the most efficient builds when it comes to low skill, so they are the ones that can be utilized to an average outcome without much second thought. And the crowd calls them "the best builds out there" because they don't know any better. Its a fact that 90% of MMORPG gamers can't really play MMORPGs, or understand the mathematics behind the flashy UI.

To the topic: Simplest way to explain the class system in TESOF. Your character consists of combinations of abilities and stats gained from following; Class, H/M/S (Health, mana, stamina), Armor, weapon. All of the following give you different abilities, passives etc. It depends on how you rank them / what you use.

So yes, you can go Rogue, plate armor, and pick up an healing staff. As you specialize towards that role, more unlocks are awarded to you to use.
This post was last modified: December 11th 2012, 03:51 AM by Nehemia


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Post #17213
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well most raiders use cookie cutter builds too so id take that with a grainof salt.

then again, i just figured. this is the first MMO where the healer can replace his primary attack with a heal. thats pretty cool.
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Post #17217
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(December 11th 2012, 03:54 AM)Sordak Wrote: well most raiders use cookie cutter builds too so id take that with a grainof salt.

then again, i just figured. this is the first MMO where the healer can replace his primary attack with a heal. thats pretty cool.

Could be done back in the days as well. I'm glad such features make its return. And well, only PvE raiding experience I have is from WoW Vanilla, and there I had low gear in comparison, but my far from cookie cutter build did top the DPS charts. And usually in PvP, cookie cutters are just the builds that any trained monkey can use. That's my experience at least.


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Post #17219
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My opinion is that while you will choose your race and class initially in typical Morrowind style also typical of the game is the virtually unlimited way that character will evolve and you decide on that progression.

But I think I see your point. I would prefer to see classes as watered down as possible which is integral to my Elder Scrolls experience but the "herd" may struggle with this concept and rely on cliches/frameworks to build their character around so how big will Zenimax compromise in this direction? Time will tell and the direction they take will define my opinion of the game.


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Post #17233
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There will be the holy trinity (tank, heal,dps) but it won't be the simple tank and spank. The mob AI is going to be smarter. They will be able to figure out which one is the healer and go after them, ignoring the tank. So it's going to be a much more difficult fight than what you would have in WoW for example.

Think of the classes as the foundation for your character. It helps determine what direction you want to go. As you level up and make your choices, you change the way your class works. For example, you might start out as a mage but decide you want to be a plate wearing battlemage later on as you level. You could do that. Your friend could also choose mage but decide they want to be a traditional robe waring, staff wielding Wizard type. They could do that too. So in the end, you would have some freedom to customize your class to make it fit your play style.

I hope all that makes sense. It's still early for me and I'm only on my first cup of coffee.
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Post #17237
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Since every class has the ability to block (and move) the impetus for survival falls on the individual player. Healers will certainly play a crucial role, but in PvE you can't use them as a crutch. PvP is different.

This also implies that tanks will have better stamina management resources that other classes so as to better absorb blows.

Keep abilities in mind as well -- despite the fact that we know very little, we will probably get on-use dodge abilities to help as well.


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Post #17241
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(December 11th 2012, 06:26 AM)Tabbycat Wrote: There will be the holy trinity (tank, heal,dps) but it won't be the simple tank and spank. The mob AI is going to be smarter. They will be able to figure out which one is the healer and go after them, ignoring the tank.

I wouldnt be entirely sure about this Tabby, we still dont have enough info on the trinity implementation.

Whole concept of trinity relies on aggro mechanic. If the mob suddenly charges healer ignoring the tank, tank looses purpose and healer becomes tank. That would encourage healers to stack stamina and defensive tools to survive to become real tanks ... all that resulting in really bad game design


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Post #17245
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(December 11th 2012, 06:57 AM)Rage Wrote:
(December 11th 2012, 06:26 AM)Tabbycat Wrote: There will be the holy trinity (tank, heal,dps) but it won't be the simple tank and spank. The mob AI is going to be smarter. They will be able to figure out which one is the healer and go after them, ignoring the tank.

I wouldnt be entirely sure about this Tabby, we still dont have enough info on the trinity implementation.

Whole concept of trinity relies on aggro mechanic. If the mob suddenly charges healer ignoring the tank, tank looses purpose and healer becomes tank. That would encourage healers to stack stamina and defensive tools to survive to become real tanks ... all that resulting in really bad game design

Maybe not but I'm just going off of what they said here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/a...nline.aspx
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Post #17246
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Indeed. My understanding is that ai will be dynamic and adapt, but players will have the resources to handle the situations in accordance with their particular roles.

Its new flavor, and its way better than simply AoE pulling an area and turning it into a tank'n'spank.


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Post #17368
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id much prefer not basing any of your statements on something featured on game informer, as the game informer articles, so far, have been heavily... well... wrong. about pretty much every detail.

The notion of saying the lack of an aggro mechanic is bad game design is something laughable.
Instead i call it lazy game design if you, for the lack of a better idea, stick with something that was never a very intuitive system to begin with, nor a challenging one.

Thats why so many raids in WoW for example are based on gimmicks, because tank n spank is boring. dont deny it.
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Post #17383
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WoW is a bad example Sordak, game has been dumbed down heavily, tanking in vanilla was something entirely different. On other hand we have GW2 as terrible example of mostly random aggro.

Lack of aggro mechanic IS terrible game design. The AI finding weak spots still is aggro mechanic, its simply determination which player NPCs are going to attack. Without it being done properly (see GW2), its total mess


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