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Crafting With Kilivin


Started by Kilivin
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--------Introduction---------
I have looked around on crafting for TESO and, sadly, I have not found much regarding it. So, in response to the lack of information on crafting I'd like to make a thread about what I want to see in crafting and what everyone else wants to see in it. Being an Orc, I have quite a picky appetite when it comes to crafting, and that appetite doesn't go away easily. Without further ado, these are the things I want in crafting for TESO.

Limits
In many games I've noticed, they limit you to having two or three crafting majors. After you reach this, you can not get the rest of the crafting majors. First off, why have this? Why should I be restricted to just smithing at a forge and mining with a pickaxe? I should be allowed to have as many crafting majors as I want, and the only thing that should restrict me to one is the dedication to that craft, which you will see what I mean by that in the Making Of An Item section. However, given enough time, anybody should be able to do what they want to do. Perhaps this sounds a bit like Runescape in that it's just maxing out different skills or so. However, that is not what I propose. I propose that there be such a level of ingenuity and depth in any specific crafting major that getting to 100 in leatherworking let's say, doesn't mean that you can craft best stuff. In order for you to be a great crafter requires trial & error with a bit of skill also.

Gathering
Recently, I have had the pleasure of playing games which have a wonderful system of gathering. While one which I will be mentioning in this section isn't fully developed and could also be given a few adjustments I feel it relates to my wishes regarding the Gathering of materials. This game is called Don't Starve and in this game you require many different materials in order to do just that, not starve. While I wouldn't ask for TESO to focus on your hunger, I would like to see some of the gathering aspects from Don't Starve in TESO.

One of those gathering aspects is the cutting down of trees. When equipped with an ax, I would like to be required to obtain wood for the shaft of my perhaps lower grade ax. This wood could then be taken through something like a sawmill to get it to the shape I desire, and then attached to a blade of sorts. I don't mean that all weapons will require wood, but it provides a lighter weapon for people who desire swiftness over power. Wood could also be used in things like bolstering castles gates and such. I would like to be required to obtain ropes from gathering thick reeds then fashioning from them harnesses for the fittings of my armor. I would like to also see the ability to obtain parts of monsters to use in your crafting. If I were to kill a Daedroth I could take his teeth to make a toothed sword, or if I were to kill a Dremora I could cut off his horns for a helmet. The list of things I want to be able to gather for crafting goes on and on. Pretty much anything that makes sense to for me to be able to gather I want to be able to gather.


Customization Pt1
Customization in my craft to me is huge. So huge, I am making two parts to this portion. I know the frustration when crafting a weapon and while it does so much more damage than my weapon, the stats on it are lacking compared to mine. If only people were able to craft some item similar to that which had the stats you were looking for. This is one thing I would love to be able to do for TESO. I want to be able to change whatever statistics or enchantments I want on anything I make, granted I have the materials for what I want. Be that instead of having a breastplate that I can craft which has +5 bonus to health and +5 bonus to stamina, I can change that to a +10 bonus to magicka and no bonuses to the other two. This might require different special items to be able to make, but the ability to make whatever I want is crucial to me.

Say I want to make a blade do some more damage, I would make it longer in turn making it heavier granting it slower, yet harder swings. I don't want to make leather armor and then be restricted to only make leather armor that gives bonuses to rogues and archers. I want to be able to make my leather armor the way I want to make my leather armor. Be that crafting it with a little bit of ebony to make it have more armor value but give negatives to stamina I care not. I want my armor to be made for whomever I want to make it for. I don't want preset stats of any kind on whatever I make, at least grant me that leniency.

Customization Pt2
Another part of customization which might be a little complicated, but I feel would greatly personalize someone's crafting style is customizing appearance. Now, for those who don't have an artistic touch to their craft, there should be a couple preset looks for the armor they are crafting. However, for those who really want to make their greatsword look how they imagined it, allow them the pleasure of doing so.

I'll try to be as clear as I can on what I mean by this. Those who played Skyrim or Oblivion all know how customizing the look of your character was. You have bars in which you can change very specific features such as the height of your cheekbones, how big your eyes are, etc. I want a similar mechanic for crafting. I don't ask for such a range that I can make my weapons and armor look deformed, but just enough to where my decision to go into this detailed customization of my weapon or armor is notice-able to others & myself. Be that the ability to make my helmet have horns a specific length, my steel boots to have a spiked toe and rivets across the top, or even my spaulders having spikes coming from them.

Let us use the Greatsword as a detailed example of this. I choose to make my greatsword to be an orcish greatsword. I used a bit of leather and steel for the hilt of my greatsword. Also, for decorative purposes, I added a minor amount of gold to my greatsword. Since I gave my greatsword an extra amount of orichalcum ingots, its blade length can be adjusted at a minimum of 4ft, and a maximum of 5ft. NOTE: none of these adjustments affect the stats of the weapon, those stats only change for the adjustments you make to the item as noted in part 1, which would require more bars to begin with. I choose to make my blade 5 feet long, Compensating? No, I'm an Orc. I make the blade of my sword slightly curved at the top. I also make one side of it have a sawtooth pattern. All & all, picture the blade portion looking like this but longer

[Image: Assassins-Creed-III-Gamestop-Sawtooth-Sword.jpg]

I choose my hilt to have a hand guard around it made of steel, wrapped with leather. I choose to make the hilt's end point made of gold. All together, I have a very unique looking blade which I will cherish both from its stats and appearance being what I desire. As you can imagine, the possibility of different looks could be huge. NOTE: Again, people who craft do not have to do this, but have the option to if they want (just want to make that clear).

Making Of An Item
I mentioned there being some sort of skill to crafting besides just the actually skill of that craft going up. What I mean by this is not entirely, but similar to that of EQ2. While I don't care too much for the cheesy animations I feel that it had, I do like that there was more to crafting than just gathering materials and pressing the craft item button. I don't insist on this being hard for all items you make but only difficult when crafting weapons which are quite powerful. Of course, as you level up your skill, the difficulty to craft that weapon goes down. This is so even when you are at max skill, there will be things you can craft which are difficult to craft. Stuff that will require both knowledge on the exact amount of materials required, and a sense of timing.

NOTE: The following is only if you are crafting a blade of your own make, any epic recipes that you find craft the item without this. More on recipes after this portion.

Now then, let's craft our own epic steel sword. Since this is just you making this masterpiece, it won't be easy and you aren't quite sure the exact amount of materials you will need. You decide to forge your epic steel sword using 6 steel ingots, 1 strip of leather for the hilt, and some gold as decoration. NOTE: The different materials you use and the quantity in which you use them has an affect whether or not the blade will be the epic blade you need. You craft away, the forge begins to run low on heat you must blow air into it with the blade taking shape. At this point of the sort of "mini-game" you have to blow just the right amount of air to maintain just the right amount of heat for your blade, let it get too hot, and you might mess up the blade entirely, make it too cold, and you won't be able to hammer it properly. NOTE:this amount does have an affect whether or not your blade will be epic. You then take the blade out of the forge and begin to hammer it. At this point of the mini-game you are to hammer the blade into shape. You are able to adjust the power of your swing on the blade. NOTE: This also has an affect on whether or not the blade will be epic. You fit your sword into the hilt and voila, your blade is crafted, but is it epic? Aw, sadly you just made a steel sword, and you will have to try again with what could be different materials, different amount of heat when forging the blade, or different levels of power when hammering

Recipes
Most crafting games have recipes, and in this I would expect no less. They provide a basis for people to craft. As far as the characteristics of a recipe goes, what they are designed to do is make it to where you do not have to go through the crafting skill featured above. When you learn a recipe, you know exactly how to make it, and there is no trial & error when crafting an item. The only thing required to learn a recipe is for your crafting to be the level given by the recipe and to succeed in the timing of the crafting of the item. That being, correct hammering of the blade & giving the right amount of heat at the right time for the item. NOTE: when you make something from a recipe, you are not allowed to mess with the appearance or stats, as you are merely copying what another person has written down so to speak. However, if the recipe has multiple different outcomes of appearances and stats to choose from, you may do so. To simplify, those who make an item from scratch without a recipe have no idea how many materials they need, how hard or when to strike with your hammer, or how much and what time to increase the heat of the forge. Different blades would require varying amounts of each of these two processes and different materials as to not make the process repetitive in any way.

Regarding recipes I thought, since you can make your own stuff without using a recipe, I'd like everything you make be a recipe. What I mean by this is if you succeed in making that epic steel sword, it becomes a recipe. When people use this, unless the person who made this recipe includes different appearances and stats, the people who use the recipe are stuck with what the crafter made. This recipe can then be distributed with other crafters and of course be given the profit you see fit. It's essentially an item with people click to learn then they can repeat what you did without the aspect of trial & error. This way, instead of everyone who skins all the deer in the world get a bunch of money from an Auction House, those who are truly great crafters who spend time in their craft get the real money by selling and distributing their recipes. I also find this a great feeling of accomplishment that you get to see everyone walking around with your epic longsword. Winking_grinning

-----------------Conclusion------------------------
While I can see these as being complicated, the major thing that I want in the game is that which I mentioned in Customization Pt1 & Pt2. Thank you for reading, and I hope you enjoyed. Feel free to add any other crafting ideas below. I left out a few things, which I have ideas on but are a bit complicated. Those were details with enchanting & smelting. I'm sure there are many others which everyone can think of and add. Thanks! Happy
This post was last modified: March 11th 2013, 02:16 PM by Kilivin
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First of all, lemme say, I like how you think. Im also a big fan of crafting in these games. Even though its a long post to read, it has some good ideas in it, which are similar to thoughts Ive had.

Having said that, Im afraid, as you mentioned, most of this, espacially the customization is just too much work and too had to add in. Dont get me wrong, Id love to see customization to that level, but from a dev stand point, its just way too complicated.

I like your ideas on making crafting more skill based, but theres a fine point there at which it becomes so complicated that most wont bother with it. A system thats not so plain/simple though, is definately over due.

The gathering ideas are right in line with my opinions. I think you should have to use an axe and go out to the trees to get your wood, or a pick in the mountains/caves to get your ore. There should also be a process of "refining" your materials, whether its milling your wood, polishing/cutting your gems, or smelting your ore.

The other problem with full customization is that it has the potential to make items obtained by other means obsolete. If you can obtain the exact stats you want from a crafter, wheres the incintive to go get that weapon from a dungeon that has almost what you want? As a crafter, that wouldnt bother me so much, but as players, we have to consider the overall balance of the game and the economy. Also, if you can get the exact same item from a crafter, but with a different/cooler look, why bother to go into a dungeon and fight for that item? Again, an issue of overall balance in the game.

I love your ideas and approach to recipes, especially the idea of being able to make things with or without a recipe ( again, sad to say, im afraid this is just too complicated to actually implement though). Ive also wanted to be able to develop my own recipes and sell those recipes in a modern MMORPG. If Im that good of a crafter, why shouldnt my recipes and my experience be of value to the younger/newer crafters?

As for your opinion on limits, thats the one Im kind of torn on. I have mixed feelings on this part. Yea I also think I should be able to master any craft given enough time. The problem becomes, if anyone can master EVERY craft, it makes the overall value of crafting go down drastically, which in turn has horrible effects on the economy. Ive seen this happen in other games, where you build your skill and become a great crafter, but nobody is interested in buying from you because they have a full blown crafter of their own. So the only purpose all your crafting skill has is for your own chars or possibly for guild purposes, at best. Its kind of a double edge sword there. Yea, I want to be able to become a full crafter, but at the same time, I want my craft to be of value in the community. Yes, the idea of difficulty in crafting would have some effect on this, but over time, I think it would still becomes an issue. Given enough time, far too many people would build every skill.

Theres also the arguement of whether a person in one faction should be able to discover, win, wear, or craft items that are specific to another faction/race. Which, in my opinion falls into the faction lock issue (which I know is HUGE debate). If your gonna faction lock though, you MUST be consistent all the way through. There shouldnt be trading between factions. There should only be limited discovery of other faction's items, and that would need to be within the limits of story (maybe find it on a creature near a border that took it from another faction's char). And finally, if you are to discover how to make something like this, it should be extremely difficult to learn, to obtain the materials, and to actually craft.

Over-all though, I like this post very much @"Kilivin". Some very god ideas.

Also, I have some ideas on crafting too. Let me gather my thoughts and Ill throw them at ya. :)
This post was last modified: March 10th 2013, 08:08 PM by Balkoth


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(March 10th 2013, 07:59 PM)Balkoth Wrote: Theres also the arguement of whether a person in one faction should be able to discover, win, wear, or craft items that are specific to another faction/race. Which, in my opinion falls into the faction lock issue (which I know is HUGE debate). If your gonna faction lock though, you MUST be consistent all the way through. There shouldnt be trading between factions. There should only be limited discovery of other faction's items, and that would need to be within the limits of story (maybe find it on a creature near a border that took it from another faction's char). And finally, if you are to discover how to make something like this, it should be extremely difficult to learn, to obtain the materials, and to actually craft.

I would hope to see the Auction House or merchants of the game not be effected by the war between factions. Not to go on a tangent into another subject, but for most games the economy is effected by wars, but is not controlled by them. While this isn't always the case, I see no reason why my Orc can't sell a masterfully crafted ax to your Nord. This gives me an idea on how Auction Houses could be which I will post about at a later time.

I don't mean to seem like this will be in the game but from a desirable stand-point, I see no reason why people couldn't sell items through all factions. Thanks for the reply. Happy
This post was last modified: March 10th 2013, 08:28 PM by Kilivin
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(March 10th 2013, 08:27 PM)Kilivin Wrote: I would hope to see the Auction House or merchants of the game not be effected by the war between factions. Not to go on a tangent into another subject, but for most games the economy is effected by wars, but is not controlled by them. While this isn't always the case, I see no reason why my Orc can't sell a masterfully crafted ax to your Nord. This gives me an idea on how Auction Houses could be which I will post about at a later time.

I don't mean to seem like this will be in the game, but from a desirable stand-point, I see no reason why people couldn't sell items through all factions. Thanks for the reply. Happy

Yea I understand what your saying here. Without going into the whole horrible arguement (hehe) Im not a fan of the faction lock, but I think if your gonna do it, you need to be consistent. Maybe there should be a larger fee for having some neutral trader be the go-between in the deal (and obviously a bit longer delivery time to go across battle lines), or something like that. I also like the idea of keeping the design styles somewhat seperate too, as I was saying above. If your gonna do it, do it right and consistent all the way through. Thats all Im saying, ya know. :)

As for the reply, anytime. Its good to have a discussion with another crafting fan. Im starting to think we're a dying breed.

btw, yea I fully expect an AH to be included. I beleive they have actually confirmed that.
This post was last modified: March 10th 2013, 08:36 PM by Balkoth


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I also love crafting, and i did like some of the ideas and i haw a lot of them to add to this, but since this task would be absolutely useless i wont waste my time. If i had i chance to give few tips to devs i would love that opportunity lets hope ill get the chance at beta but ill probably will haw more chance on wining the lottery then getting into beta.

So few facts i want to point out:
You haw 3 major crafting profession, BS Enchanting and Alchemy. You can major only 1 of those, this is fact and 99% sure it wont change. Chose wisely.
Most of "stats" on items come from enchanting, so when you craft your items using BS it wont be enchanted, BS will mostly provide base stats as in Armor value and Damage value on weapons/armor, after that you will haw to take it to enchanter to get stats on it.
Will it be like this? i dont know but it was like this in all TES games, so they probably will haw somthin close to this.
From what Devs said in interview Crafting will be extremely relevant to end game. How will they implement it? we dont know but some speculate that you will haw some items drop in Dungeons and others haw to be crafted (ex: you get braces and gloves at Dungeon and Chest and pents from crafting) OR you get materials and recepies to make best gear available from Dungeons at which point you need to combine all 3 crafts to make it, like you craft Virgin sword with base stats only then you take it to enchanter who will need materials that are only made by alchemyst, and only after combining all 3 profession you will get best in slot items.
But since we dont know much and they wont tell us anything, it could be the best crafting system in the market or most fail and boring one out there, we will haw to find out at release.
PS: I also hope crafting will be as mini-game, then boring old mash spam key bord.
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Im not sure where you got all this but, VERY little has been confirmed yet in regards to crafting. Without solid references for these statements, not podcast speculation, you might wana be careful about stating things as fact. We were simply talking about what we'd like to see implemented for crafting.


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(March 11th 2013, 07:37 AM)Ewan Wrote: I also love crafting, and i did like some of the ideas and i haw a lot of them to add to this, but since this task would be absolutely useless i wont waste my time. If i had i chance to give few tips to devs i would love that opportunity lets hope ill get the chance at beta but ill probably will haw more chance on wining the lottery then getting into beta.

So few facts i want to point out:
You haw 3 major crafting profession, BS Enchanting and Alchemy. You can major only 1 of those, this is fact and 99% sure it wont change. Chose wisely.
Most of "stats" on items come from enchanting, so when you craft your items using BS it wont be enchanted, BS will mostly provide base stats as in Armor value and Damage value on weapons/armor, after that you will haw to take it to enchanter to get stats on it.
Will it be like this? i dont know but it was like this in all TES games, so they probably will haw somthin close to this.
From what Devs said in interview Crafting will be extremely relevant to end game. How will they implement it? we dont know but some speculate that you will haw some items drop in Dungeons and others haw to be crafted (ex: you get braces and gloves at Dungeon and Chest and pents from crafting) OR you get materials and recepies to make best gear available from Dungeons at which point you need to combine all 3 crafts to make it, like you craft Virgin sword with base stats only then you take it to enchanter who will need materials that are only made by alchemyst, and only after combining all 3 profession you will get best in slot items.
But since we dont know much and they wont tell us anything, it could be the best crafting system in the market or most fail and boring one out there, we will haw to find out at release.
PS: I also hope crafting will be as mini-game, then boring old mash spam key bord.

Yah, I think it turns people off in crafting to not have crafting be interesting. One way to do that is a mini-game of sorts.

I also didn't want to make it seem like BS and enchanting were tied together, haha. By all means, the Epic Steel Longsword has no magical properties, but is a great crafted blade which could be enchanted with greater enchantments or what not. The main thing with crafting is that it isn't simple in concept, but simple to use or get used to. A lot of complicated crafting in video games are so insanely hard to grasp it become a hassle. Alas, I would propose that the crafting be accessible more than anything at all. Nobody wants to open their crafting tab or what not and it have 5000 buttons to press. It should be simple and easy to use, but still have a lot of depth to it.

Also, I don't see why we should be limited to BS, Enchanting, and Alchemy. Why not have Woodsman, Leatherworker, Weaponsmaster, Armorer, Scribe (scrolls and such), Gatherer (stuff for alchemy), Forager (get mats from monsters), etc etc. If there is going to be a limit on crafting majors, the list of specializations for crafting should be quite large as to not make a large population all great at one of 3 things. It makes people feel more unique in their craft when you add specializations to their craft. Not to mention, it feels way more awesome to be called a Master Armorer then just a Master Blacksmith. . imo at least.
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(March 11th 2013, 07:58 AM)Balkoth Wrote: Im not sure where you got all this but, VERY little has been confirmed yet in regards to crafting. Without solid references for these statements, not podcast speculation, you might wana be careful about stating things as fact. We were simply talking about what we'd like to see implemented for crafting.

but dev said so during 1of his interview, and it makes sense, that you can major in only 1 of this 3, BS Enchanting or Alchemy. and by this i mean you can master only 1 of this, maybe you can practice all 3 but in only 1 of those can you make "epic" quality items.
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Oh no, I had also heard/read that there would be a limit to how many you could master. I was referring to there only being 3 fields of crafting. I hadnt seen anything saying this. If it does go this way, then they've already practically guaranteed crafting to be flawed.

Considering that theyve already said how important crafting will be and that it will have a lot of depth, I dont see them limiting it so severely.
This post was last modified: March 11th 2013, 12:53 PM by Balkoth


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(March 11th 2013, 12:47 PM)Balkoth Wrote: Oh no, I had also heard/read that there would be a limit to how many you could master. I was referring to there only being 3 fields of crafting. I hadnt seen anything saying this. If it does go this way, then they've already practically guaranteed crafting to be flawed.

Considering that theyve already said how important crafting will be and that it will have a lot of depth, I dont see them limiting it so severely.

Yah, I would imagine they'd have many different types of crafting. While TES only had BS, enchanting, and alchemy, I see no reason why it must stick with only these three. Not only could you add more, but you can also make it to where each crafting tree so to speak has specializations which further make your character unique.
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I love these crafting ideas, Kilivin!! That Orcish Great Sword is to die for ... or by! I agree that ZOS/Beth may have read your ideas here and implemented some of them in TESO crafting system.


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(May 19th 2013, 04:35 AM)CedarLilly Wrote: I love these crafting ideas, Kilivin!! That Orcish Great Sword is to die for ... or by! I agree that ZOS/Beth may have read your ideas here and implemented some of them in TESO crafting system.

I sure do hope so! Looking back at this post - I think the recipe thing is something I would really love to see. It could be just pride in your craft, but it'd be awesome to see everyone using your masterfully crafted weapon none-the-less. =D


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First of all, I have always enjoyed crafting, especially alchemy in the ES series. With that being said, I also see where a lot of good ideas and implementations could be included in the game from what you have suggested. The only problem I have with what you proposed, is that I don't have as much time to game as I used to. I don't want to have 3 hours to spend gaming, and use 2 hours of it crafting. Again, I love crafting, and I like being able to customize my character, but it seems like your ideas might make the crafting process a little lengthy for casual gamers, and unfortunately for people like me, I now fall into that category simply because of responsibilities in my personal life.

I also agree with the earlier post that such a level of customization would probably be a nightmare for the devs to implement well. Perhaps there will be a happy medium, where there is an additional layer to the crafting process, but it will not be hard for the devs to put in and it won't have much of a time impact on the crafting process either.


The fires burn. Our supplies are spent. Axes are dull, and armor is rent. The enemy approaches, our doom, they seek. We are Daggerfall Covenant. We are Orcs. Our comrades, they come, for glory they seek, at the side of our iron and steel. We will not fall.
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(May 20th 2013, 10:03 PM)Lord Burl Wrote: First of all, I have always enjoyed crafting, especially alchemy in the ES series. With that being said, I also see where a lot of good ideas and implementations could be included in the game from what you have suggested. The only problem I have with what you proposed, is that I don't have as much time to game as I used to. I don't want to have 3 hours to spend gaming, and use 2 hours of it crafting. Again, I love crafting, and I like being able to customize my character, but it seems like your ideas might make the crafting process a little lengthy for casual gamers, and unfortunately for people like me, I now fall into that category simply because of responsibilities in my personal life.

(March 10th 2013, 06:13 PM)Kilivin Wrote: NOTE: Again, people who craft do not have to do this, but have the option to if they want (just want to make that clear).

I guess you didn't read this part.
This post was last modified: May 21st 2013, 04:31 PM by Kilivin


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(May 21st 2013, 04:28 PM)Kilivin Wrote:
(May 20th 2013, 10:03 PM)Lord Burl Wrote: First of all, I have always enjoyed crafting, especially alchemy in the ES series. With that being said, I also see where a lot of good ideas and implementations could be included in the game from what you have suggested. The only problem I have with what you proposed, is that I don't have as much time to game as I used to. I don't want to have 3 hours to spend gaming, and use 2 hours of it crafting. Again, I love crafting, and I like being able to customize my character, but it seems like your ideas might make the crafting process a little lengthy for casual gamers, and unfortunately for people like me, I now fall into that category simply because of responsibilities in my personal life.

(March 10th 2013, 06:13 PM)Kilivin Wrote: NOTE: Again, people who craft do not have to do this, but have the option to if they want (just want to make that clear).

I guess you didn't read this part.

LOL, completely missed it, thanks! Definitely would be awesome if it were optional, that way when I had the time I could put in all that extra effort, and when I was busy I could skip it. Kudos on a great set of ideas here for the crafting system.


The fires burn. Our supplies are spent. Axes are dull, and armor is rent. The enemy approaches, our doom, they seek. We are Daggerfall Covenant. We are Orcs. Our comrades, they come, for glory they seek, at the side of our iron and steel. We will not fall.
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