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Started by Acrion Valmir
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(July 26th 2013, 01:09 PM)LGAllastair Wrote: Well, what they NEEDED to do (in your opinion) is irrelevant, what matters is what they are doing, at least to this discussion. And I do believe the order of the 50+ and 50++ zones will be chosen for you depending on your faction because of the reasons me and Isarii explained, you really haven't brought any relevant arguments as to why they would let us choose nor addressed any of the problems I posed, all you posted is what you want, and while I respect that, it adds nothing to the discussion.

Let me break it down for you. You guys have two points that you're making that are important for your argument. One is about why you think they'll do it the way you describe, and the other is how doing it the way I described would cause problems. I'll go through and show exactly why it's relevant.

You think they chose to limit you and so you see no reason why they would change that policy for a different mechanic. I'm attacking the very basis of your argument by making they point that they didn't choose to limit you. They were forced to based on the other aspects of the game. What they absolutely want to do though is make a TES game, which they say all over the place. That means player choice. They want to give you choice so when they have the chance, they give it to you. If attacking the foundation of your argument is somehow irrelevant, please, go right ahead and explain how.

Your second thing is about why letting the player choose is a bad idea. Your point is that it would cut down on the amount of people in an area. While this is a valid concern, I don't think it would be as much of a problem as you think it is. For first people going into the new areas, yes, there won't be many people to play with. However, they won't care because to level that fast they already had to leave the community behind. Therefore it's not going to bother those people. Unless you're planning on leveling as much as you can and playing almost non-stop then you won't have any trouble in this. Then later when the more average players come in, they'll be with the peak of the bell curve and won't have any trouble finding other people to group with. As Ferroc has said, the gameplay is meant for solo to small group play. You don't need an absolute mass of people running around all over the place to make a small group.


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(July 26th 2013, 05:05 PM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote: You think they chose to limit you and so you see no reason why they would change that policy for a different mechanic. I'm attacking the very basis of your argument by making they point that they didn't choose to limit you. They were forced to based on the other aspects of the game. What they absolutely want to do though is make a TES game, which they say all over the place. That means player choice. They want to give you choice so when they have the chance, they give it to you. If attacking the foundation of your argument is somehow irrelevant, please, go right ahead and explain how.
You're not attacking the foundation of my argument, we just come from completely different origin points in here. We saw the same info and concluded different things so I believe this part we won't agree on.
I think they won't sacrifice the progression of the 50+ content to make this feel a TES game, there are a bunch of elements that make this a TES game, this choice won't change much, but NOT giving the choice will change A LOT. This game is more MMO than TES from what I've read, so that is why I believe that. You believe otherwise, and both of us have no way of proving our beliefs as we have no access to the game, so we might as well not discuss this as it won't lead us anywhere.

(July 26th 2013, 05:05 PM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote: Your second thing is about why letting the player choose is a bad idea. Your point is that it would cut down on the amount of people in an area. While this is a valid concern, I don't think it would be as much of a problem as you think it is. For first people going into the new areas, yes, there won't be many people to play with. However, they won't care because to level that fast they already had to leave the community behind. Therefore it's not going to bother those people. Unless you're planning on leveling as much as you can and playing almost non-stop then you won't have any trouble in this. Then later when the more average players come in, they'll be with the peak of the bell curve and won't have any trouble finding other people to group with. As Ferroc has said, the gameplay is meant for solo to small group play. You don't need an absolute mass of people running around all over the place to make a small group.

You're just wrong here, you think it won't make a difference but it will, it is just the logical conclusion in the long term, but you wanna deny it so we have nothing to talk about. If you don't think that limiting the people in the area AND making one of the zones too easy (the second one you go to) is a problem then I've got nothing. When the game comes out we will get to 50 and see who is right.
This post was last modified: July 26th 2013, 05:50 PM by LGAllastair


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(July 26th 2013, 05:48 PM)LGAllastair Wrote:
(July 26th 2013, 05:05 PM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote: You think they chose to limit you and so you see no reason why they would change that policy for a different mechanic. I'm attacking the very basis of your argument by making they point that they didn't choose to limit you. They were forced to based on the other aspects of the game. What they absolutely want to do though is make a TES game, which they say all over the place. That means player choice. They want to give you choice so when they have the chance, they give it to you. If attacking the foundation of your argument is somehow irrelevant, please, go right ahead and explain how.
You're not attacking the foundation of my argument, we just come from completely different origin points in here. We saw the same info and concluded different things so I believe this part we won't agree on.
I think they won't sacrifice the progression of the 50+ content to make this feel a TES game, there are a bunch of elements that make this a TES game, this choice won't change much, but NOT giving the choice will change A LOT. This game is more MMO than TES from what I've read, so that is why I believe that. You believe otherwise, and both of us have no way of proving our beliefs as we have no access to the game, so we might as well not discuss this as it won't lead us anywhere.

(July 26th 2013, 05:05 PM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote: Your second thing is about why letting the player choose is a bad idea. Your point is that it would cut down on the amount of people in an area. While this is a valid concern, I don't think it would be as much of a problem as you think it is. For first people going into the new areas, yes, there won't be many people to play with. However, they won't care because to level that fast they already had to leave the community behind. Therefore it's not going to bother those people. Unless you're planning on leveling as much as you can and playing almost non-stop then you won't have any trouble in this. Then later when the more average players come in, they'll be with the peak of the bell curve and won't have any trouble finding other people to group with. As Ferroc has said, the gameplay is meant for solo to small group play. You don't need an absolute mass of people running around all over the place to make a small group.

You're just wrong here, you think it won't make a difference but it will, it is just the logical conclusion in the long term, but you wanna deny it so we have nothing to talk about. If you don't think that limiting the people in the area AND making one of the zones too easy (the second one you go to) is a problem then I've got nothing. When the game comes out we will get to 50 and see who is right.

While it wasn't a foundation of YOUR argument, it was one of Isarii's. It was merely a point being made and I was making a counter-point. I still don't see why my point was irrelevant though.

To prevent confusion, we need some kind of default names for each faction. For this conversation, I suggest "first faction" as your starting faction, "second faction" as the 50+ faction, and "third faction" as the 50++ faction.

However, would you mind clarifying/showing your thought process on what you meant by "Limiting the people in the area and making the zone too easy would cause problems"? I don't see where "making the zone too easy" is coming from considering it's supposed to be all harder than normal lvl 50 areas from your first faction. I'm also unsure where you're getting the limiting people from seeing as how there is virtually no limits at all about where you can go in the second or third factions when you get there.

I will say though that something crossed my mind: There are no level barriers in the second and third factions. That means when people get there they will run in whatever direction they want to whatever area they want. I can see this definitely supporting the idea that there will be a significant lack of people (at least until the game has aged a good amount) in a particular area in the second and especially in the third faction. Thinking about this I can now say from a pure game mechanics standpoint, I believe having them choose what order the factions are in is superior. However, you also have to think about what people want in their game. Do you want a choice that works better for the game, or one that makes the players more happy (and making them want to keep playing your game)? That's a tough choice that ZOS has to make.
This post was last modified: July 27th 2013, 02:04 AM by vigk vagk v2


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I personally don't believe that artificially limiting the amount of people within a faction's areas is a bad thing, for reasons I've previously stated. To me that makes the argument that there will be less players in 50+ zones completely irrelevant, since that's kind of the point. Logically it does make sense: players wanting more solo adventures take this avenue of gameplay. If anything, the idea that each faction after your original has no levelled zones only shows how much the devs want to make this a TES game first (which is my impression of the game). In a situation where they can, they make the game as free and open as possible, leaving as much as they can up to player choice.

Now I think @LGAllastair was implying that each zone would be levelled the same, or at least levelled so that there is a definite stepping stone sort of thing, where each faction gradually increases in difficulty.

I'd like to point out that most likely, if the devs do it the way I and @vigk vagk v2 believe, where players choose which faction to progress to, all the devs would hafta do is phase each faction as you progress. They just scale each faction up twice: once for those entering a faction right after hitting fifty, and once for those entering a faction as their third.


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this game is getting worse and worse everytime i read up about it. so much community seperation is very bad and limiting for the mmo crowd. wait and find out that this game might just turn out to be a multiplayer tes game with more limiting aspects than the single player games. at this point im staying on mortal online...ZoS need to convince me they arent ruining this game, before i commit to it.
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(July 26th 2013, 06:56 PM)vigk vagk v2 Wrote: However, would you mind clarifying/showing your thought process on what you meant by "Limiting the people in the area and making the zone too easy would cause problems"? I don't see where "making the zone too easy" is coming from considering it's supposed to be all harder than normal lvl 50 areas from your first faction. I'm also unsure where you're getting the limiting people from seeing as how there is virtually no limits at all about where you can go in the second or third factions when you get there.

I will say though that something crossed my mind: There are no level barriers in the second and third factions. That means when people get there they will run in whatever direction they want to whatever area they want. I can see this definitely supporting the idea that there will be a significant lack of people (at least until the game has aged a good amount) in a particular area in the second and especially in the third faction. Thinking about this I can now say from a pure game mechanics standpoint, I believe having them choose what order the factions are in is superior. However, you also have to think about what people want in their game. Do you want a choice that works better for the game, or one that makes the players more happy (and making them want to keep playing your game)? That's a tough choice that ZOS has to make.

Alright. 100 Ebonheart pact players start playing ESO together, so that is their first faction. They level up in their own rhythm, but mostly they see each other around in a few levels, some of them become friends with each other, some of them join the same guild, but for the most part they don't KNOW each other, they have just grouped on occasion. This is a common scenario in MMOs, I am using the number 100 because it is round and easy to calculate.

When they get to 50, that is when the game REALLY starts, as it should be for any MMO that has content in it, considering that this is the level players will spend most time on. So, 30 of the players I mentioned above decide they will go see the aldemeri zone, while 70 decide they will go see the Daggerfall. From the 30 Daggerfall people, only 10 start together at the same zone and the other 20 go to another zone as the progression on the second faction territory is not as linear.

Something similar happens to the other 70 players that chose aldemeri, they split themselves up in the zone. They might even start at the same questing area but then they just move on to different areas after that, there are plenty of chances for this to happen. Now let's suppose these people are looking for group to do a hard area they can't solo, or a dungeon. Considering timezone differences, routine differences, role incompatibility, language barriers, the phases on the mega server and obviously the fact that from the 100 people that were potentialy available players while they leveled up only a few are actually around and doing the same content they are at the same time in the same instance... do you think it will be easy to find players to do things? I don't think so. How empty will the game feel after 3-4 months when most of the initial crowd is 50 already and a new player gets to 50? By then this analogy I made above will be even worse, because it won't be 100 players, it will be like... 20 (proportionally speaking).

The point is, this splitting of the community based on the choice they make causes all of the MMO aspects of the game to be severely harmed (hard to encounter groups for group content, you don't see many people around making it feel empty, destroying community). Solo gameplay is NOT the main aspect of an MMO, it is not fun to play an online game as if it was a single player one, for that we have single player games, the TES series won't stop, new games like skyrim will be released, if people wanna play Skyrim online this game is not it, and it shouldn't be it.


Now, to address the "zone being too easy part". What I meant by that was that when you get to 50 your gear and experience with your class is limited, because before 50 you never had all of your abilities, you never had points for a full set of skills, you were missing key class skills and your ability trees were not fully developed. When you get to 50, that is when you have tools at your disposal to make a build that will represent a role and that will stay with you for some time, that's when you fine tune yourself and test things (the famous min/ maxing). So I think it is safe to say that a recent level 50 is NOT as strong as a player who has been 50 and done 50 content for more than a month.

With that in mind, if they do as you propose and allow people to choose which will be their second faction, then both 50+ areas will have to be balanced so that a recent level 50 is able to go through them. You mentioned that they could scale the content up twice (once when you hit 50 and again when you finish the second zone), that is even worse! Because then it will create another instance and divide the community more.

So, with both areas scaled to accomodate a recent 50, once you go through your second faction, the third will be a joke. You will be a more experienced player, with a more defined role, with more skills, more gear, more versatility. But the third faction zone will be filled with recent 50s that picked that zone as their second faction, and you (as a more experienced and geared player) will simply roll over the content easily. The third area you do will be just to see the story, just a grind with a few challenging moments if you're lucky. This is a MAJOR problem, it breaks the progression path, it makes people feel like they are being stalled. This is NOT end game content.

On the other hand, if they do as I think they will and choose the second and third faction areas for you, then we will get a much harder third faction area, because they know who is coming, they know what you got at your second faction and what kind of gear you have, they can scale the difficulty of that zone to much harder levels making all of that content more durable and more enjoyable for seasoned players. It will FEEL like end game, like the third faction aread is "for the grown ups". If the third faction area doesn't have that feel, it will be just made as a requirement by the community, triavialized. It won't be end game, it will be just the norm, you "HAVE" to do all three factions to be considered a true 50.

They say some of the best gear will come from 50+ content, how could they give you some of the best gear without a challenge? Why would they make the second faction zone be HARDER then the third?

I hope that was clear.


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Yep, you made your point very clear and well thought out. Without name calling, too? Well done! Internet kudos to you!


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Well let's just call it a ceasefire until we get a definitive answer. There are some valid points for both sides, and we won't ever come to a conclusion until the devs actually answer us.


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I commend you all on debating like grown-ups! ^-^ It's very refreshing to read.
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Yeah there are multiple threads on this subject.

Though to answer your question: Yes, a Nord can go to Black Marsh or Morrowind. Any race can go to its faction designated areas. However, you can not go to your enemy faction and quest over there till you are level 50(+).

Do I agree with this? No.


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Also, @Vigk-Vagk-v2 (I give up, I have no idea how to tag a name with spaces on this forum) and @Ferroc, even in Allastair's great post I think there wasn't something that wasn't completely spelled out. Here's the biggest problem I have with choice being provided:

@LGAllastair and I are both playing Ebonheart. He chooses to progress to the DC first, and I choose to progress to the AD first. When this happens, even with both unlocked, his DC will be scaled to 50+, and my DC (the final unlocked faction) would be scalled to 50++ - meaning because we chose to unlock them in a different order, we could never play together in those zones.

Now it's true that systems could be implemented for us to get around it, but they would be awkward and relatively nonsensical. It would make much, much more sense to just not create this problem by removing player choice from the equation completely.
This post was last modified: July 28th 2013, 12:59 AM by Isarii


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One open world problem solved...............
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Well see I would come back and say to that that because you chose to play in different factions why would you expect to play together? This part if the game is meant for solo play to a max of like a four player group. It's meant to be mostly personal, not as a social experience per say. You are playing for the story or to just experience another factions area without having to make an alt. if you do wanna move through with frends, if it is a choice ud for sure hafta coordinate where to go. But that's really kind of the nature of the beast anyways


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(July 28th 2013, 02:51 AM)Ferroc Wrote: Well see I would come back and say to that that because you chose to play in different factions why would you expect to play together? This part if the game is meant for solo play to a max of like a four player group. It's meant to be mostly personal, not as a social experience per say. You are playing for the story or to just experience another factions area without having to make an alt. if you do wanna move through with frends, if it is a choice ud for sure hafta coordinate where to go. But that's really kind of the nature of the beast anyways

In @Isarii example we didn't choose to play in different factions, we ARE in the same faction, Ebonheart. He is talking about choosing different 50+ zones.

The problem being: Isarii and I are on the same guild in Ebonheart, we play up to level 50 together, and then at 50 there is a miscommunication and he goes to the Aldemeri dominion zone and I go to the daggerfall zone, now we can't play together anymore because if he wants to catch up to me and have my quests he will have to stop his zone in the middle and come to mine. And if they escalate the zones twice as it has been sugggested he can't even do that!

The real problem here is joining a guild and building a friends list while you level up with people you get to know along the way, getting to 50 and sending a message like "Hey, anyone wants to help me with this Daggerfall open dungeon?" and then having many online answer things like: "Sorry, I am doing the aldemeri first so I don't have that quest and can't come."
This post was last modified: July 28th 2013, 05:24 AM by LGAllastair


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Alright, sorry for the double post, but I think I have something that finishes this discussion, straight from Paul Sage's mouth:

Quote:What are the 50++ zones? These are zones that you can access once you have reached level cap and you’ll be able to adventure through new dungeons and new storylines. These zones will only be accessible to you and your faction, you will not encounter anyone from the opposing factions. You are able to do one zone at a time, and once completed, you’ll be able to proceed to the next zone. In an email Paul Sage explained to me how that will work: “If you play in Ebonheart Pact you would subsequently go to Daggerfall Covenant. After finishing the Daggerfall Covenant, you would then go to the Aldmeri Dominion. If, however, you started in the Daggerfall Covenant, you would go to Aldmeri Dominion and then to Ebonheart Pact. From the Aldmeri Domion, you would go to the Ebonheart Pact, and then the Daggerfall Covenant.“

Read more on TESO Elite: http://www.tesoelite.com/2013/04/50-expe...z2aLTwtUhM

So yeah, I think me and Isarii were right unless something changes.
This post was last modified: July 28th 2013, 06:32 AM by LGAllastair


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