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DKP (Dragon Kill Points)


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Post #42884
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This is a fairly common question for players either new to MMO's or new to end game raids in MMO's. In fact many people play MMO's for years before they actually hear the term, as it is only really used at the raiding level of play. If you are a casual player and do not raid, DKP does very little for you.

DKP is a loot system that was invented long ago (in the video game time frame) as a way to decide who should get the loot that drops in a dungeon. Most players feel that a completely random roll for loot is not fair since one player may consistently win or lose the roll. A more controlled and organized system ensures that all players eventually get roughly even amounts of loot based on their attendance of the guilds raids. The acronym DKP stands for Dragon Kill Points. A simple definition of DKP would be:

DKP (Dragon Kill Points) - A complex tracking system used by guilds in MMO's to distribute loot to players, based on the player's contribution to the guild's raiding efforts.
A more complex and in depth definition of DKP and a bit about its history can be found in the definition from eqdkp.com:

DKP, short for Dragon Kill Points, is a concept originally created by Thott of Afterlife. These points are awarded to each guild member as they attend a guild raid. The current DKP of each member reflects his or her priority for loot. When a member "wins" an item, they lose a DKP amount that reflects the value of that item. DKP allows for an unbiased comparison between guild members when decisions about loot are to be made based on attendance and recent items that have been awarded.
The Afterlife guild is still alive and well and can be found here: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/

How Does DKP work?
DKP can be complicated and has evolved over time into several different variations. Before getting into the exact details of the variations and different ways DKP is implemented you should have a firm grasp of the basic concept. The basic concept is that you are awarded points for participating in Raids with your guild. These points are then tracked by someone in the guild and used to help determine who gets future loot.

In general the player with the most available points will get the item that they want over another player that wants the same item. This means that if player 1 has 200 DKP and player 2 has 175 DKP and an item drops that they both want, player 1 gets it if they are willing to spend the DKP points on it. If it was 50 DKP points they would recieve the item and pay the 50 DKP. The next item that both players want would then go to player 2 as they would be the higher player at 175 DKP compared to player 1's new total of 150 DKP.

How do I earn DKP points?
No matter which system of DKP is used there are usually several ways to earn points. The ones used in your guild are up to the guild. Some guilds use all methods to award points while others only use the loot drops to determine points. There is no right or wrong way, as long as it is consistent. Below is a list of the primary methods of earning DKP points.

Loot Drops - This is by far the most common method to award points to players for the actual loot that drops on the raid. This requires either a chart of point values for all possible drops in a zone or the use of open points bidding for the item. Points charts in WoW are normally allocated in increments of 10 or 25 so that any item that drops can be easily divided by the number of players in the raid. With a point chart system each player would get a fraction of the points that were allocated to the item, whether they got the item or not.

Loot Drop Chart Points Example:
Guild A kills a boss in a 10 player raid. The boss drops 3 epic items that have a points rating. The items are worth 100, 100, and 50 points.

Gradiel and Woodchick each bid on, and receive one of the 100 point items, while Kaarma receives the 50 point item. The other 7 people in the raid receive no loot.
A total of 250 points were dropped by the boss.
Each of the 7 players in the raid that did not get loot recieve 25 DKP for future use.
Kaarma loses 25 DKP (25 points earned - 50 points spent)
Gradiel and Woodchick each lose 75 DKP (25 points earned - 100 points spent)

Do you think DKP looting is a good end-game raid loot distribution tool?


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Post #42887
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I find most dkp systems to not be flexible enough. And from what they have said, loot will be given to people similarly to GW2. Meaning, everyone who participate in killing something get their own loot. Which means this system would be even worse to implement. Unless you expect everyone to give up their loot to a master looter and then redistributed to players with the dkp system.

Granted its too early to be 100% sure how loot system will work in the various aspect off the game yet. So this is something that remains to be seen. But if they go the GW2 route, I don't think a pure old school dkp system will work all that well.


Caught between imagination and reality, the truth and the lies, dreaming and waking.
-And wanting it no other way.

I reject your reality and substitute my own
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Post #42905
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(February 20th 2013, 04:39 PM)Terwox Wrote: I find most dkp systems to not be flexible enough. And from what they have said, loot will be given to people similarly to GW2. Meaning, everyone who participate in killing something get their own loot. Which means this system would be even worse to implement. Unless you expect everyone to give up their loot to a master looter and then redistributed to players with the dkp system.

Granted its too early to be 100% sure how loot system will work in the various aspect off the game yet. So this is something that remains to be seen. But if they go the GW2 route, I don't think a pure old school dkp system will work all that well.

That would be too messy, and people would become impatient, will have to give this some thought tommorow, and think how something successfull could be implemented. Any ideas


GM OF [TDA] THE DAGGERFALL AUTHORITY..
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Post #42922
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Ive used this sytem in guilds in the past and it works fine, as long as the guild is run properly and is populated by "adults". The question of flexability of fairness, I think falls more on the leadership of the guild and the raid. Ive found it works very well, in a guild thats tight/close and everyone is mature about it.
This is all assuming, that they go with the traditional need/greed loot system, that is. GW2 has eliminated the arguement over who gets what pretty successfully, but it leaves other dilemas. Im curious to see how they approach this question as well. Will they leave it up to people to hash out a system, or will they take that out of our hands completely?


The Original Corpse Maker
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(February 20th 2013, 05:17 PM)Guild Master Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 04:39 PM)Terwox Wrote: I find most dkp systems to not be flexible enough. And from what they have said, loot will be given to people similarly to GW2. Meaning, everyone who participate in killing something get their own loot. Which means this system would be even worse to implement. Unless you expect everyone to give up their loot to a master looter and then redistributed to players with the dkp system.

Granted its too early to be 100% sure how loot system will work in the various aspect off the game yet. So this is something that remains to be seen. But if they go the GW2 route, I don't think a pure old school dkp system will work all that well.

That would be too messy, and people would become impatient, will have to give this some thought tommorow, and think how something successfull could be implemented. Any ideas

If they go the GW2 route, a system for trading items between players might work. Although you don't need a system for that. You can just link stuff you got and then give the item to whoever wants it. Of course on a bigger group level like raids. There might be more than 1 person who wants something, could use a loot council and/or dkpish system for that I suppose.

(February 20th 2013, 06:03 PM)Balkoth Wrote: Ive used this sytem in guilds in the past and it works fine, as long as the guild is run properly and is populated by "adults". The question of flexability of fairness, I think falls more on the leadership of the guild and the raid. Ive found it works very well, in a guild thats tight/close and everyone is mature about it.
This is all assuming, that they go with the traditional need/greed loot system, that is. GW2 has eliminated the arguement over who gets what pretty successfully, but it leaves other dilemas. Im curious to see how they approach this question as well. Will they leave it up to people to hash out a system, or will they take that out of our hands completely?

The way GW2 did it is as fair a way off delivering loot to all involved parties as you're gonna get. The problem might arise when you are in guild that prefer to give out loot based on guild progression over personal progression. In these guild you might end up asking players who got loot upgrades in their personal drop to be handed over to others. Which not everyone will be fine with.


Caught between imagination and reality, the truth and the lies, dreaming and waking.
-And wanting it no other way.

I reject your reality and substitute my own
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Post #42936
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yea, overall I thought GW2 did a good job with its loot system. It prevented the whole ninja thing at least.

I really do look for it to be a more traditional need/greed system though (hopefully with some improvements), but who knows.


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(February 20th 2013, 07:00 PM)Balkoth Wrote: yea, overall I thought GW2 did a good job with its loot system. It prevented the whole ninja thing at least.

I really do look for it to be a more traditional need/greed system though (hopefully with some improvements), but who knows.

They could give guilds the choice to choose a master looter, need before greed or similar more traditional systems for guild runs. Not sure how well that would mesh with the amount off loot that "the everyone gets loot" racks up too.


Caught between imagination and reality, the truth and the lies, dreaming and waking.
-And wanting it no other way.

I reject your reality and substitute my own
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Post #42943
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DKP is a must for larger raid groups. Loot council leads to far too much drama, because people will inevitably like some people more than others and favor the people they like. Smaller raid groups however, can get by easily with rolls, my 10 man raids in DCUO, WoW; and my 5 amn teams for TERA all worked just fine with rolls because we all knew who wanted/needed what and they generally had no competition on rolls.
With the GW2 that TESO looks to be using, I think it will favor smaller tight knit groups because they can effectively pool all the loot they got and divide it to who needs it, if no one needs something, sell it and divide the gold. At least that's what I think makes more sense anyway. And of course, if you got an item you needed for your loot, it doesn't even have to go to the pool.


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Post #42946
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(February 20th 2013, 07:25 PM)Velaskae Wrote: DKP is a must for larger raid groups. Loot council leads to far too much drama, because people will inevitably like some people more than others and favor the people they like. Smaller raid groups however, can get by easily with rolls, my 10 man raids in DCUO, WoW; and my 5 amn teams for TERA all worked just fine with rolls because we all knew who wanted/needed what and they generally had no competition on rolls.
With the GW2 that TESO looks to be using, I think it will favor smaller tight knit groups because they can effectively pool all the loot they got and divide it to who needs it, if no one needs something, sell it and divide the gold. At least that's what I think makes more sense anyway. And of course, if you got an item you needed for your loot, it doesn't even have to go to the pool.

The loot council mostly leads to drama when people can't be impartial. So its a inherit problem with people, not the system. As loot council is supposed to divide loot based on the stats on the loot, and who/what class needs it the most. Not who they like the most. At any rate, I don't see much need for any loot distribution system to properly distribute loot even in large raids if TESO stick with the system they have announced so far. As it can be simply be resolved by the players in the raid/group handling that on the spot themselves. Unless you have selfish people in the group. But then the problem isn't about the distribution any more.

And any system that demands players to give up their personal loot regardless off how good an upgrade it is for them is going to get iffy at best.


Caught between imagination and reality, the truth and the lies, dreaming and waking.
-And wanting it no other way.

I reject your reality and substitute my own
– Adam Savage
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(February 20th 2013, 04:33 PM)Guild Master Wrote: This is a fairly common question for players either new to MMO's or new to end game raids in MMO's. In fact many people play MMO's for years before they actually hear the term, as it is only really used at the raiding level of play. If you are a casual player and do not raid, DKP does very little for you.

DKP is a loot system that was invented long ago (in the video game time frame) as a way to decide who should get the loot that drops in a dungeon. Most players feel that a completely random roll for loot is not fair since one player may consistently win or lose the roll.

Only a factor over small sample sizes, though I suppose people who don't understand statistics might see things differently.

(February 20th 2013, 04:33 PM)Guild Master Wrote: Loot Drops - This is by far the most common method to award points to players for the actual loot that drops on the raid. This requires either a chart of point values for all possible drops in a zone

Personal interjection: the existence of such things is a stark reminder of just how stale and static these games get over time. Open bidding at least keeps the illusion that you're playing in a fantasy world instead of a database alive just a little bit longer...

(February 20th 2013, 04:33 PM)Guild Master Wrote: Do you think DKP looting is a good end-game raid loot distribution tool?

I'll be honest:
The need for such things is part of what puts me off large guilds in general. It's not a bad system (in fact I can't really think of a better one, at least not off the top of my head), it's just that it *is* a system; an indicator that things have gotten so big and impersonal that informal methods aren't sufficient anymore.

That said... I would rather see this, than having the system itself dictating loot dispensation. GW2's "drops for everyone," while fair, struck me as crossing an (admittedly arbitrary) line of being too artificial. And potentially wrecking the loot-economy by making drops too common.
(Not that I particularly care for loot/raid economies, but if it's going to be there I'd rather it not be a total mess.)
This post was last modified: February 20th 2013, 08:35 PM by Venitas the Heretic
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(February 20th 2013, 07:43 PM)Terwox Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:25 PM)Velaskae Wrote: DKP is a must for larger raid groups. Loot council leads to far too much drama, because people will inevitably like some people more than others and favor the people they like. Smaller raid groups however, can get by easily with rolls, my 10 man raids in DCUO, WoW; and my 5 amn teams for TERA all worked just fine with rolls because we all knew who wanted/needed what and they generally had no competition on rolls.
With the GW2 that TESO looks to be using, I think it will favor smaller tight knit groups because they can effectively pool all the loot they got and divide it to who needs it, if no one needs something, sell it and divide the gold. At least that's what I think makes more sense anyway. And of course, if you got an item you needed for your loot, it doesn't even have to go to the pool.

The loot council mostly leads to drama when people can't be impartial. So its a inherit problem with people, not the system. As loot council is supposed to divide loot based on the stats on the loot, and who/what class needs it the most. Not who they like the most. At any rate, I don't see much need for any loot distribution system to properly distribute loot even in large raids if TESO stick with the system they have announced so far. As it can be simply be resolved by the players in the raid/group handling that on the spot themselves. Unless you have selfish people in the group. But then the problem isn't about the distribution any more.

And any system that demands players to give up their personal loot regardless off how good an upgrade it is for them is going to get iffy at best.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. People screw the loot council system up and it leads to drama.

Any system that makes you give up your personal loot that is an upgrade for you, or you have a use for is flawed. Ideally you would be giving the things you don't need to your friends that do need it.


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Post #42974
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(February 20th 2013, 08:35 PM)Velaskae Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:43 PM)Terwox Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:25 PM)Velaskae Wrote: DKP is a must for larger raid groups. Loot council leads to far too much drama, because people will inevitably like some people more than others and favor the people they like. Smaller raid groups however, can get by easily with rolls, my 10 man raids in DCUO, WoW; and my 5 amn teams for TERA all worked just fine with rolls because we all knew who wanted/needed what and they generally had no competition on rolls.
With the GW2 that TESO looks to be using, I think it will favor smaller tight knit groups because they can effectively pool all the loot they got and divide it to who needs it, if no one needs something, sell it and divide the gold. At least that's what I think makes more sense anyway. And of course, if you got an item you needed for your loot, it doesn't even have to go to the pool.

The loot council mostly leads to drama when people can't be impartial. So its a inherit problem with people, not the system. As loot council is supposed to divide loot based on the stats on the loot, and who/what class needs it the most. Not who they like the most. At any rate, I don't see much need for any loot distribution system to properly distribute loot even in large raids if TESO stick with the system they have announced so far. As it can be simply be resolved by the players in the raid/group handling that on the spot themselves. Unless you have selfish people in the group. But then the problem isn't about the distribution any more.

And any system that demands players to give up their personal loot regardless off how good an upgrade it is for them is going to get iffy at best.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. People screw the loot council system up and it leads to drama.

Any system that makes you give up your personal loot that is an upgrade for you, or you have a use for is flawed. Ideally you would be giving the things you don't need to your friends that do need it.

Its too bad that your going AD @"Velaskae". I think Id like being in a guild with you. You have the same way of looking at it that I do. :)


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(February 20th 2013, 08:39 PM)Balkoth Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 08:35 PM)Velaskae Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:43 PM)Terwox Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:25 PM)Velaskae Wrote: DKP is a must for larger raid groups. Loot council leads to far too much drama, because people will inevitably like some people more than others and favor the people they like. Smaller raid groups however, can get by easily with rolls, my 10 man raids in DCUO, WoW; and my 5 amn teams for TERA all worked just fine with rolls because we all knew who wanted/needed what and they generally had no competition on rolls.
With the GW2 that TESO looks to be using, I think it will favor smaller tight knit groups because they can effectively pool all the loot they got and divide it to who needs it, if no one needs something, sell it and divide the gold. At least that's what I think makes more sense anyway. And of course, if you got an item you needed for your loot, it doesn't even have to go to the pool.

The loot council mostly leads to drama when people can't be impartial. So its a inherit problem with people, not the system. As loot council is supposed to divide loot based on the stats on the loot, and who/what class needs it the most. Not who they like the most. At any rate, I don't see much need for any loot distribution system to properly distribute loot even in large raids if TESO stick with the system they have announced so far. As it can be simply be resolved by the players in the raid/group handling that on the spot themselves. Unless you have selfish people in the group. But then the problem isn't about the distribution any more.

And any system that demands players to give up their personal loot regardless off how good an upgrade it is for them is going to get iffy at best.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. People screw the loot council system up and it leads to drama.

Any system that makes you give up your personal loot that is an upgrade for you, or you have a use for is flawed. Ideally you would be giving the things you don't need to your friends that do need it.

Its too bad that your going AD @"Velaskae". I think Id like being in a guild with you. You have the same way of looking at it that I do. :)

Hooray for alts?


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From my experience in WoW, my guild had to download a MOD to receive DKP. There was one person who kept track of the DKP just in case some of the "new" members who did not download the MOD. So, if using DKP for most guilds require a MOD to use for tracking DKP, then I do not see DKP working due to TESO not allowing MODS. Of course, people could always rely on someone else keeping a written account of DKP....
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(February 20th 2013, 08:35 PM)Velaskae Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:43 PM)Terwox Wrote:
(February 20th 2013, 07:25 PM)Velaskae Wrote: DKP is a must for larger raid groups. Loot council leads to far too much drama, because people will inevitably like some people more than others and favor the people they like. Smaller raid groups however, can get by easily with rolls, my 10 man raids in DCUO, WoW; and my 5 amn teams for TERA all worked just fine with rolls because we all knew who wanted/needed what and they generally had no competition on rolls.
With the GW2 that TESO looks to be using, I think it will favor smaller tight knit groups because they can effectively pool all the loot they got and divide it to who needs it, if no one needs something, sell it and divide the gold. At least that's what I think makes more sense anyway. And of course, if you got an item you needed for your loot, it doesn't even have to go to the pool.

The loot council mostly leads to drama when people can't be impartial. So its a inherit problem with people, not the system. As loot council is supposed to divide loot based on the stats on the loot, and who/what class needs it the most. Not who they like the most. At any rate, I don't see much need for any loot distribution system to properly distribute loot even in large raids if TESO stick with the system they have announced so far. As it can be simply be resolved by the players in the raid/group handling that on the spot themselves. Unless you have selfish people in the group. But then the problem isn't about the distribution any more.

And any system that demands players to give up their personal loot regardless off how good an upgrade it is for them is going to get iffy at best.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. People screw the loot council system up and it leads to drama.

Eh. I'd strike out the bit I underlined there :P

(February 20th 2013, 08:35 PM)Velaskae Wrote: Any system that makes you give up your personal loot that is an upgrade for you, or you have a use for is flawed. Ideally you would be giving the things you don't need to your friends that do need it.

This works great in small guilds, and often mid-sized ones (which is why I tend to prefer them.) But once things start getting bigger, quite often you're gaming with 'acquaintances' more than friends; people you know, tolerate and can work with but don't particularly care about.

And that's about when "who do I like better" starts trumping "who needs it more."




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