Finesse - What's your take?

I was watching one of the interviews posted on the Game Informer coverage for TESO and heard them talk a little bit about finesse.

If you don't know what finesse is, to shortly sum it up: during combat either by yourself or with your group, using certain tactics or pulling off maneuvers builds up your finesse. The more finesse you have, the more experience and better items you'll receive.

I hope I got that correct, my memory is a little foggy. Anyway, what is your take on finesse? Do you like it the way that ZOS explained it, or do you have a better system in mind?

Also, if you have a better understanding of it than what I just summed up, please explain it further.

I think it sounds great. It reminds me of super and ultra moves from Street Fighter 4, which might sound surprising because it's an entirely different genre, but I think it will work just as well in TESO to enhance the action elements of the combat system.

This is a tough one isnt it. Im not sure getting better loot sounds a bit retardet if you ask me. It makes no sense, but its good to incentivise good play. As for Combat. I always thought rewarding good players is a nice way, not in the way COD does it but in a more direct way that too requires skill.

For example i always figured that in tribes, a midair hit should do more damage than a regular one.

It however realy depends on how it is structured. If it is realy forced it could lead to something simmilar as skill rotations, basically "Maxing out" finesse till you hit your Ultimate Ability.
This for example could lead to character builds (for example for mages that need their ultimates in big fights, or healers that need them as emergency heals) that are only based on skills that rack up finesse very easily.

when it comes to me i would like finesse soly be based on dodge, block and good hits. So its a more open and less exploitable system.

well see how they pull it off.

It sounds good in theory as it would reward players for quality and skilled play. It sounds bad as it could end up creating rotations that build finesse the fastest and forcing players to choose a particular class for the most effective ultimate skill. Hopefully once BETA rolls out I'm sure ZOS will tweak the system and go through trial and error to see ultimately what will work best.

I like the idea that it rewards players for working together tactically, however I have the same concerns that everyone else has already raised about it becoming the thing you HAVE to achieve in combat.

I'm not sure on the idea of extra or better loot drops on it as it doesn't make sense (as mentioned above) and it really seems like it's penalising those who might not be as "skilled" at the game.
That being said I really do like the opposite of that which is if you're skilled at the game you're going to be doing better than those who are not as skilled. Personally I always feel player skill should trump gear/levels.

I'm not entirely sure about getting better drops, just for playing better. That you would get more XP from a fight where you used more and different tactics seems plausible, but to be additionally rewarded with better items doesn't make much sense to me and is a bit over the top. The double reward for one is double the punishment for the other.

But then they stated that kills will fill your bar as well and especially when being grouped it should fill fast. So it wouldn't need skill or special tactics, but a zerg to get the rewards. That doesn't really encourage better playing, but grouping. Which isn't bad thing.

I really don't know. I have to see this system in action and how it turns out when hundreds of player can use it to make up my mind. It probably depends on how it is balanced between solo and group finesse kills and loot.

Will it take significantly longer to end a fight soloing with max finesse than without? Can you get the same level of items out of a max finesse fight as a group might get? Will it balance out that a solo player takes longer to kill, but gets to keep all the items with a group killing faster, but having to share?

(July 31st 2012, 12:46 PM)Redguard King Wrote: It sounds good in theory as it would reward players for quality and skilled play. It sounds bad as it could end up creating rotations that build finesse the fastest and forcing players to choose a particular class for the most effective ultimate skill. Hopefully once BETA rolls out I'm sure ZOS will tweak the system and go through trial and error to see ultimately what will work best.

In one of the interviews they expressed that they are very anti-rotation. It was also said that they tried to make the ultimates situational to an extent, with the intention that they are not things that you just activate as soon as they are available, but hang onto until an appropriate time to use them, such as the emergency heal that was mentioned above. Obviously the healer's not going to just spam that as soon as he gets it, unless it is actually needed.

(August 8th 2012, 03:24 PM)confusion Wrote:

(July 31st 2012, 12:46 PM)Redguard King Wrote: It sounds good in theory as it would reward players for quality and skilled play. It sounds bad as it could end up creating rotations that build finesse the fastest and forcing players to choose a particular class for the most effective ultimate skill. Hopefully once BETA rolls out I'm sure ZOS will tweak the system and go through trial and error to see ultimately what will work best.

In one of the interviews they expressed that they are very anti-rotation. It was also said that they tried to make the ultimates situational to an extent, with the intention that they are not things that you just activate as soon as they are available, but hang onto until an appropriate time to use them, such as the emergency heal that was mentioned above. Obviously the healer's not going to just spam that as soon as he gets it, unless it is actually needed.

Yes they have expressed there are no rotations, and a lot of that is due to the limited amount of skills on a players toolbar. Even still, finesse will be based on good player behavior and that means ZOS will have to dictate what kind of behavior that is.

It would lead one to believe repeating familiar behaviors would reap the same benefits so it could inevitably bring some sort of new type of "rotation" if you will. We'll just have to see. A lot of the things ZOS is doing sound great and could be a new step in the right direction for MMOs.

That being said, they are taking huge risks with these new features and we won't really know how they turn out until we get to test them ourselves. It's just like when BioWare raved about how great the resolve bar in PvP would be for SWTOR when it is arguably one of the worst mechanics in the game.

Just because it sounds great in theory doesn't mean it will translate that well in practice. Only time will tell, but I'm hopeful.

TESO will live or die by how communal and cooperative and "realm-like" it is. Mark my words.

Here is another perfect chance to reward people for being group-friendly.

Rewards like this should be gated on team interactions, like LOTRO's Fellowship Manuevers, not solo things. Even a duo can perform them. It is the sort of social and group incentives that take gaming back to a community sense - which this game is supposed to be all about, yes?

Somebody somewhere in gaming needs to roll back all this solo horses__t in MMOs. Here is an obvious aspect begging for it.

i know what you mean RedGiant. Actually Everquest 2 had this too called Heroic Moves. they were neat, however they were realy forced and required you to use specific abilities. I think the "Synergetic Abilities" as they call them work alot better, i just hope that you can combine more than just a few abilities.

On the Finesse rotation.
Its more than just an Illusion RedguardKing. Im not talking about people doing rotations because they think its better. Im talking about certain Skill Combinations that exist soley for the purpose of getting the ult off. What im saying is that especialy in PvP, ONLY beeing usefull with your ult, but having that all the time can actually be more benefit than beeing better along the board. AoE crippling and general CC is the bread and butter of PvP.

One Ultimate they mentioned was summoning a frost Atronarch that would stun people in an AoE.
This is kind of like Warlocks Ultimate (DotA) and everyone who has played dota probably knows that Warlock has a tendency of rushing Refresher Orb.
What im going at is that min maxing your Skills to get a certain result will be rampant. And this way a Mage Character might pick a few abilities that are proven to generate the most Finesse. These will most likeley be spells with a very large AoE that hit multiple targets, snyergy abilities and debuffs. Basically they will then spam these skills, not unlike rotations, for exactly ONE reason.
And that is to get that Frost atronarch as fast as humanly possible. There will be those builds. And there needs to be a way to make this somethign that is NOT competetive (because its stupid)

I'm still a bit on the fence about the system. I think it's a push in the right direction, though I think with the information we have, it's still a bit too early to tell. I definitely agree with RedGiant on this, the more they do to encourage friendly interaction with those around you the better.

(August 7th 2012, 05:07 PM)Deveron Wrote: I'm not entirely sure about getting better drops, just for playing better. That you would get more XP from a fight where you used more and different tactics seems plausible, but to be additionally rewarded with better items doesn't make much sense to me and is a bit over the top. The double reward for one is double the punishment for the other.

I can see better loot to an extent - more finesse = less trashing of your opponents gear.

But that means likes like the armour, weapons and consumables are more likely to be in lootable condition (as opposed to being reduced to scraps.) More of what you would have got - not better quality versions, or things you wouldn't have found in the first place. And within reason.

OTOH, it also has to walk that fine line between "rewarding excellent play" and "punishing mediocre play," and that's a somewhat subjective line in itself - often depending on where the individual falls on the skill-curve.

Yes, that makes sense. Excellent point, indeed!

I must admit, I fear they meant with better loot just having access to a better loot table which hasn't to do anything with the mob you just fought. If it's like you suggest, it would be an awesome system, really. From your lips to Dev's ears!

I like it because it seems like a clever way to emphasize people to work together. Work together more - everyone gets more. It rewards individual skill and group skill. I really feel it will benefit the teamwork.

Medicore play must be punished.