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How to make ESO's RvR Better Than GW2


Started by DDH Wraath
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Posted this blog article on our guild site if anybodies interested:

http://the-darkhand.com/guild-wars-2-2/l...-than-gw2/
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Post #62865
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GW2 RvR failed cause of three reasons imo.

a) all classes were a bunch of homogenized hybrids which discourages teamplay since no one really depends on another classes.
this is nice when doing 1v1 pvp (which i like) but on RvR its not good; in RvR you need roles.

b) there's no collision dedection. either among allies or enemies.
not having ally-collision gives us the infamous "blobs" we see in GW2. evere 50 people are squished in one cubic meter and steamroll everything while on autopilot.
not having enemy-collision means that you cant have a serious chance against zergers. choke points, blocking gateways, playing a tanky spec, are of no importance.

c) no reason to defend your keep. everyone is just exchanging keeps clockwise to farm points.
not that you could successfully defend one, since people can pass through you as if you're ghosts... but just saying...

(im gonna read the article now XD )
This post was last modified: April 28th 2013, 04:30 PM by Delavega86
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The best "Open world Pvp" that i can take of is Eve-Online.
This post was last modified: April 28th 2013, 04:31 PM by Dr Lizzio
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(April 28th 2013, 04:27 PM)Delavega86 Wrote: a) all classes were a bunch of homogenized hybrids which discourages teamplay since no one really depends on another classes.
this is nice when doing 1v1 pvp (which i like) but on RvR its not good; in RvR you need roles.


c) no reason to defend your keep. everyone is just exchanging keeps clockwise to farm points.
not that you could successfully defend one, since people can pass through you as if you're ghosts... but just saying...

I don't know why people think GW2 WvW failed..... the game is still going VERY strong. I don't believe it failed but it could be improved. Hopefully eso makes these improvements.

a.) the game does require teamwork for WvW each class relies on another for certain things obviously you didn't figure these things out. If your group wasn't doing these type of things then they probably weren't very good.

For ex:
Warrior: Condition removal/dps/cc/

Guardian: Condition removal/ boons(buffs)/ healing/ blast finisher for healing(eles healing rain)

Elementalist: AoE dmg/ Healing/ CC

Necromancer: AoE Condition dmg/

Mesmer: Boon removal, cc/ quickness(increased attack speed for group.) group stealth

c.) you must have only played when they did the daily matches to determine the strength of each server. Matches are a week long. There is no "exchanging of keeps" at all. Servers do defend their towers/keeps. Battles last as long as an hour just fighting within a keep.


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Post #62882
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I agree with everything the article said and the points that Delavega86 mentioned.

Another problem with GW2 is the weekly "matches". Having winners/losers discourages the losers, as people tend to dwell on the score. If their side loses they get pissed at their own realm and quit or transfer servers. If your side is losing early on they tend to give up. In DAOC, realm matchups didn't change; it was a constant flux and you could take pride in the fewer leads that you did gain. If you were on the "losing" realm you just kind of accepted it and still went out strong every night. You didn't give up and wait for Friday's reset.

I'm also personally am not a fan of downed state, though I learned to deal with it. I think dead people should be dead.
This post was last modified: April 28th 2013, 06:49 PM by Helspyre


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Post #62888
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(April 28th 2013, 04:27 PM)Delavega86 Wrote: GW2 RvR failed cause of three reasons imo.

a) all classes were a bunch of homogenized hybrids which discourages teamplay since no one really depends on another classes.
this is nice when doing 1v1 pvp (which i like) but on RvR its not good; in RvR you need roles.

b) there's no collision dedection. either among allies or enemies.
not having ally-collision gives us the infamous "blobs" we see in GW2. evere 50 people are squished in one cubic meter and steamroll everything while on autopilot.
not having enemy-collision means that you cant have a serious chance against zergers. choke points, blocking gateways, playing a tanky spec, are of no importance.

c) no reason to defend your keep. everyone is just exchanging keeps clockwise to farm points.
not that you could successfully defend one, since people can pass through you as if you're ghosts... but just saying...

(im gonna read the article now XD )

This all day. They had a decent idea but just...fell really short. Hoping ESO takes us back to the glory of DAoC. My guildies and I are considering going back and training pvp wise there. ( DAoC)


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Post #62916
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(April 28th 2013, 05:24 PM)Artarius Aetius Wrote: a.) the game does require teamwork for WvW each class relies on another for certain things obviously you didn't figure these things out. If your group wasn't doing these type of things then they probably weren't very good.

For ex:
Warrior: Condition removal/dps/cc/

Guardian: Condition removal/ boons(buffs)/ healing/ blast finisher for healing(eles healing rain)

Elementalist: AoE dmg/ Healing/ CC

Necromancer: AoE Condition dmg/

Mesmer: Boon removal, cc/ quickness(increased attack speed for group.) group stealth

c.) you must have only played when they did the daily matches to determine the strength of each server. Matches are a week long. There is no "exchanging of keeps" at all. Servers do defend their towers/keeps. Battles last as long as an hour just fighting within a keep.

no, trust me, im in a pretty organised guild. i know the things you mentioned.
hell our server even has server meetings with guild leaders and such.
but compared to other games, gw2 doesnt require a lot of teamwork.

having guardians and warrior put half of their skills on auto-cast with macro soft/hardware, while half the classes are useless, is not teamwork.
most classes are needed just for 1-2 ...3 at most, abilities.
then everybody hugs each other because its the most efficient tactic due to aoe cap and such... and spam 11111, dispels and retaliation; usually.
This post was last modified: April 28th 2013, 10:59 PM by Delavega86
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Most of the thins you mentioned in the article are already implemented in ESO, at least that is what Devs said. Like:
-• Launch your game without any sort of RvR progression system. - they haw ranks, skill tree, achievements and much more when it comes to progression system.

- • No leaderboards - they will haw a system to rank people i dont know how they will "represent it", but since people compete for a chance to be Emperor they must haw some way of showing "the best" players

- Heavily reward zerg play over small group play. - they heavily suggest that small groups will play huge role in capturing keeps and completing other objectives, they also mentioned small experience group can take out larger group with tactics, i am not sure how they will approach reward system, since we dont know much about it yet.

-• Raid windows? Who needs raid windows? - not much info about this yet, they did mention you will haw raid groups of 16-20 people in them, duno if you meant this.

- Class too strong in sPvP? Nerf them in RvR! - they wont haw instanced or Arena PvP at launch, only AvA so it this will be ther only focus, and since they haw more open system then GW2 they intend to make classes as balanced as possible, just hope they get it right and not make some Skill Trees more OP then others.

-• Cater to the casuals. - cent say much about this since we need to actually play the game first.
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From what I've been told(guildie in beta and from ppl who've played at pax east) the combat will cater to 1v1 fights. So it won't be like GW2 where you are able to hit multiple targets with your basic melee attack. Instead your basic attack in ESO will only hit whoever your targeting. There are a small amount of AoE type abilites but the majority are single target. So combat may be similar to WoW where in large battles you'll have to kill people one by one. I did enjoy this type of fighting and I did enjoy GW2's style as well. We'll have to see how things play out.


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(April 28th 2013, 04:27 PM)Delavega86 Wrote: GW2 RvR failed cause of three reasons imo.

a) all classes were a bunch of homogenized hybrids which discourages teamplay since no one really depends on another classes.
this is nice when doing 1v1 pvp (which i like) but on RvR its not good; in RvR you need roles.

b) there's no collision dedection. either among allies or enemies.
not having ally-collision gives us the infamous "blobs" we see in GW2. evere 50 people are squished in one cubic meter and steamroll everything while on autopilot.
not having enemy-collision means that you cant have a serious chance against zergers. choke points, blocking gateways, playing a tanky spec, are of no importance.

c) no reason to defend your keep. everyone is just exchanging keeps clockwise to farm points.
not that you could successfully defend one, since people can pass through you as if you're ghosts... but just saying...

(im gonna read the article now XD )


1) That's TESO, we can make our characters around any attributes we want. And that isn't really an issue, character's not focused on a role are always weaker in group environment, since they are weaker at performing their job. Where as these hybrids are excellent choice for solo play.
GW2 wasn't the first game to allow players to do a bunch of things with their characters in large scale PvP's. This hasn't been a problem in majority of games, but in GW2. The jack-of-all-trades model were pushed too far in viability.

2) Why would people gather to same small cube? Assuming this game has the correct crowd controls required, this will never be a problem. Collision detection is never a problem. Those small cubes only work in games where there isn't sufficient amounts of abilities to force you to scatter a little. It also has to do with the efficiency of heals. Thinking of actually being capable of forming choke points well, I think that's daydreaming. People will find ways to counter such strategies in moment of action. Currently the best choke point holders will be meat shields with knockback abilities. Collision detection or not, matters little when you attempt to run through the guy he throws you 12 meters backwards.
The only real jolly'good reason of stacking together has been against single-target spec groups to prevent target calling in MMORPG's I've played for longer time.

I just hope this game has AoE nukes to out-damage AoE heals, AoE Healing mantles (nullifies / weakens healing effects), proper AoE crowd control abilities and what not.

3) Defending keeps has to be more rewarding than taking them in order to encourage people to hold them. And if by ghosts you're discussing lack of collision detection, that has little to do with it.


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The map layout in GW2 WvW was done poorly.
1st off it has 4 maps, each map feels like a mini game. If something important happened on another map people were eigther locked out or just didnt care to go to that map.

2nd the objective layout made the feel that nothing belong to anyone it was just all up for grabs, Objects were placed bad, you just bounced around taking stuff, from 1 corner of the map to the next, even if it was close to an enemy sides port, there was no sense of invading lands. look at Cyroddil now, its like a giant pie divided into 3 slices giving each side a homeland that gives that feel you need to protect while trying to invade the enemies lands. taking enemy objectives pushes your side in further invading, like a wave coming in, the further you push in the harder it will be because you travel further and the enemy is closer to their port. this is how DAOC was. GW2 map was done poorly.

3rd GW2 takes place in the mists. a "magical realm" away from your world. right there you feel like it doesnt matter. Cyrodiil is right in the center of the map. it is important, its the borderlands from "your" home and its in danger.

Keeps didnt mean much to hold in GW2, it was better just to take them and not worry much about holding them. TESO is the opposite like DAOC, its pointless to take a keep if you dont hold it because holding each one will give a bonus to your side in your campaign, Also i previously stated with the invading wave over the lands feel, it draws a line where the main defense should be and helps to bring people to that area and they always seeem to "fall" back to that keep to defend when the other side pushes

I just talked about the map, there are alot of other things....
This post was last modified: April 30th 2013, 12:39 PM by Pirhana7








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I can't wait to find out what these bonuses are for holding a keep. This will largely affect how effective their PVP system will be.


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