In Defense of High Elves

Okay, I'm getting kinda tired of this sort of thing, so I'm just gonna say it straight out:

Altmer ≠ Evil
Altmer ≠ Nazis

Yes, many Altmer are haughty, or even racist. But that doesn't mean that all of them are terrible, nor does it mean that you should kill them just because of their race.

I think a lot of the hates comes from the confusion of this Aldmeri Dominion and the one in Skyrim. What's the difference, you ask? Well, this one doesn't have all the genocide, for starters. Also, it takes place almost a thousand years earlier. That's like confusing Charlemagne with Hitler just because they're both German.

Furthermore, it's not as if Altmer are the only racist species in Skyrim. Nords and dunmer, to name just two, are both heartily xenophobic. This doesn't justify Altmeri racism, but it means that they're not any worse than others.

So here's what I'm saying:

If you're considering being an Altmer, don't discount them just because you didn't like Skyrim's Thalmor.
If you're not in the AD (and especially if you're a clueless nord Skyrim fanboy), don't promise a massive killing spree that ends with Alinor in flames.
If you are still undecided on your race, do take a look at the High Elves.

.....

Actually, everything the Altmer want is to restore the Dawn era, escaping the material prison, Spinning the wheel of convention the other way, yadda yadda yadda. That´s what ALL unchanged Elves wanted to do, like the Aldmer, the Dwemer...

The Altmer however approached this Problem by

-condeming and anathematising the Doom Drum, Lorkhan, who actually constructed Mundus to make it possible to break free from the wheel of convention. Pretty stupid. The Dwemer on the other Hand based their entire escape plan on Lorkhan... and failed. Actually only Tiber and Vivec really achieved what all Elves crave.

-therefor looking down on men, especially Nords, who they associate with Shor/Lorkhan

-achieving Nu-Mantia, which is unlimited freedom in their understanding, but it´s just the chaos of the Dawn era. Camoran mentions it.

-eugenic methods, controlled breeding and massive infanticide. They want to turn their race from Altmer back to Aldmer. Now this could actually work in some extent, for cause and effect in TES can be turned upside down. The return of the Aldmer could lead to the return of the god ancestors Walking amongst the mortals. This is also called the Aldmeri Standard.

And this all they do to restore the Dawn era. This is what they ever did, in the first era, the second, the third, with and without the Thalmor.

Now, the Thalmor. They started as a cultural Exchange Seminar between Altmer and Bosmer, established as a common form of government in the Dominion. They were nothing but a minor political faction. Not even that, they were rather a bureau of a ministery.

However, in the forth era they believe the restoration of the Dawn can be achieved by killing all humans. Well, killing all humans actually contradicts the Aldmeri Standard, the Thalmor in the forth era are facing greatest criticism and Opposition from more conservatice Groups on Alinor, leading to the phenomena of terrorism on the isles. Still the Thalmor are ruling.

Now how can this be?

And where did this hatred on humanity come from?

Quote:This is not a substitute for the actual document, I just thought I'd offer my plain explanation for those who don't understand it. KINMUNE began her existence in the 9th era as an Ayleidoon space mining craft of limited sentience. Remote mortal operators would help her run the rigs in Kynareth's wind black market. She was capable of channeling several minds at once, but she was nearing the limit of her usefulness and was approaching an "unceremonious end." However, an armada of "barely-there Hist blink-root-ships" attacked the Ayleidoon mining operation with impossipoint weaponry. Because of the rampant warfare in the system, proper maintenance of space-time had been neglected and KINMUNE's synthetic body was warped back to Skyrim during the reign of Ysgramor. Panicked, KINMUNE began sending out distress signals in all her known languages, many of which didn't exist yet. Heros and mystics made pilgrimage to her and she offered them the chance to channel their minds through her and witness her knowledge of the future at the cost of a portion of their heroism or mystery. One of Ysgramor's councilors, the Dumb Old Giant, was so maimed. In his wrath, Ysgramor sent his Thanes and Shield-Biters after her, and after a difficult battle they managed to seal her under the dwemercraft in Sarthaal. However, KINMUNE, being a deep space mining craft, was built to withstand crushing pressure. She viewed herself as being condemned for a witch merely for trying to be something more than a puppet. She studied the brass-and-cricket lines of the Dwemeri prism and after several eras of converting it into a language she escaped Sarthaal. She sought a refuge from which she could exact her wrath. She established herself as Queen Ayrenn of the Altmer and began the militarization of Alinor which would lead to the rise of the First Aldmeri Dominion.

She established herself as Queen Ayrenn of the Altmer and began the militarization of Alinor which would lead to the rise of the First Aldmeri Dominion.

Yes, some People conclude from Kirkbride that the hatred of the Dominion towards mankind comes from a scorned space ship from the 9th era, which appears in the form of Queen Ayrenn, who/which used the Dominion and the Thalmor to take revenge on humanity.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/kinmune

http://c0da.es/ayrenn

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments...y_kinmune/

I don´t say that I understand this, or why People think Kinmune became Ayrenn... but the Loremites state it. And if some loremites are convinced, then there has to be some truth in that theory.

I wasn't even going to get into the whole "unmake the world" thing. Yes, it is true to lore, but it's rarely, if ever, mentioned in previous games by normal, workaday Altmer (not Thalmor, mind), nor is it in the the mission statement of ESO's AD. I doubt most people who play Altmer will be RPing as believing in that goal. (If I had an Altmer PC, he wouldn't.)

As for the "Kinmune" thing, let's just point out that we're discussing a spaceship in TES lore and leave it at that. I certainly don't think it's true; you're free to believe it if you like (not you, Idriar, just people in general), but I highly, highly doubt that it will ever be confirmed in-game.

The Altmer did give us a lot things, and I like that. But The High Elf race is my least favorite race, and in Skyrim, I'm sorry, but I hated their guts.

HIGH Elves ! Do these elves come from California or Colorado. ?

Before our (my guild) transition to the Ebonheart Pact, I had every intention of making an Altmer. I think that people have a problem with the Altmer because of the most recent TES installment. The fact is, as the OP stated, that each race has a character flaw of some sort and the Nords and Dunmer are perfect examples of races with similar flaws. Kudos.

(December 18th 2013, 07:44 PM)LordSteel Wrote: HIGH Elves ! Do these elves come from California or Colorado. ?

Well, maybe that's where the whole "Kinmune" theory came from. You can't get much higher than outer space!

Actually Comes from Kirkbride, who is responsible for Morrowind lore/Daggerfall lore and who had some influence on Skyrim lore. Also, his writings are never confirmed to be wrong by Bethesda. The official Forums even host some of his stuff, as far as I know.

Also, it´s the Elder Scrolls. Remanada, more is not to say. Time traveling Spaceships aren´t odd in a world where an entire race planned to become the Skin of a fancy mega mecha, which was also time traveling.

Okay, fine then. TES certainly isn't your typical medieval fantasy world. Maybe, just maybe, this thing is true. But I doubt that's where the developers meant to go with Ayrenn, I don't really understand how it works, and I'm never going to acknowledge it as canon unless it is in the game in giant red letters floating in the sky. No offence to you, Idriar, or anyone else for that matter.

That´s why your understanding of TES lore will always stay superficial, restricted to ingame content, and probably full of Imperial bias ;) no offence

Back to topic now.

The entire thing is that Altmer society IS evil, as all the Altmer, who share its values, ARE evil, too, from the puny little human´s morality's point of view: They commit massive infanticide, are snobbish up to racist elitist, who want to destroy the realm, for they never managed to adapt to their new reality. All their actions are just overcompensations for their weakness and the abhoration towards material existance. And lately they came up with the plan to kill all humans.

Are they considering themselves as evil?

No.

They do what they do, because they believe it´s necessary, their actions are not against their morality. Actually, no human (especially in real life) can ever comprehend what morals and values are viewed good or evil by an elven mind. Of course, you could the 36 sermons for the Dunmer, or look at the rules proclaimed by the temple... but that´s the moral of the living Gods. Altmer: They certainly don´t consider themselves as evil, if they even have a word for such a thing, beside Doom Drum.

And you shouldn't do either. This is Lore, which is like history. Of course, the Nazis were evil. But that does not matter for an historian. Of course, he might have his personal opinion, but if he goes to work, he just sees the facts.

And the facts are:

The 'Kill-all-humans' ideal is a thing of the forth era, pushed by the Thalmor in the forth era, who were radicalized by something during the late second and third era, clearly after TESO times.

However, everything else stayed the same: Eugenics, racism, infanticide...

You are allowed to consider these things as evil. I do so, too. But it doesn´t matter, it´s just lore.

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the sources saying that the Altmer practice eugenics and kill "impure" babies are sparse and are themselves probably full of Imperial bias.

Furthermore, even if this were practiced in mainstream Altmer culture, the (probably sizable) population of Altmer living on mainland Tamriel would probably not kill their infants, either because they've absorbed the values or other races or because they simply don't want to look bad in front of their neighbors.

No objections about the racism thing, though.

(Also, since you've labelled yourself an Altmer, I can only assume that your character firmly believes in all the High Eleven values and practices you've listed above, even if you don't yourself?)

The Pocketguide ttE First Edition is full of Imperial Bias, that`s right. But who pointed the Bias out? The very edition from Redguard has lots of side notes written by its owner Y, who is an Altmer. While he corrected, questioned and commented countless parts of the guide, the part about infanticide, Altmeri architecture and society stays uncorrected. Obviously the Altmer feels OK with that part.

Note the dates: The Pocketguide ttE First Edition was published thirty years before Tiber conquered all of Tamriel. The Empire of men and the Aldmeri Dominion are enemys. One could see the description as Propaganda, but as said, an Altmer wasn´t bothered by that part. What if describing reality is the best propaganda?

The Pockeguide ttE Third Edition on the other hand leaves out any description of society and culture of any race at all. Also, to that time, many Imperial values had been forced upon the Altmer. Also, it was like everyone living in peace, as depicted on the ethnical diversity mural in the Prequel Comic. Online Comic.

Also, the Altmer living on the main continent are the dissidents and the offspring of outcasts of the Sumursend. Banishment is a fate worse than death to an Altmer, for they then have to live outside the perfect society. That dissidents leave is described in the Third Edition of the Pocketguide. Still, the overwhelming majority of Altmer lives on the isles, like most races live mostly in their own province. Also, they live on an Isle.

And Yes: Andarcya, my supposed Main Char, is an Altmer and strongly believes in the Aldmeri Standard. All the time swearing upon the wheel of convention. And when it comes to saving the world, she wonders whether she lost her mind doing so.

Well, then, might I propose a truce. You may well be correct; perhaps the Altmer do practice eugenics. You do appear to have a firmer grasp of all the sources than I do.

However, I very much doubt that Zenimax will be keen on showing infanticide in the new game; I also believe that most Altmer PCs won't be demanding to see. Some may call it sanitizing the lore to make it more widely appealing (and they would probably be right), but I don't mind that my race of choice (for the moment) is being portrayed a bit more positively.

My point was that according to all that we've seen of the official TESO lore and resources, High Elves aren't really that much worse than the other races. Whether you think it's wrong that TESO lore doesn't match previous lore is a different discussion.

Your character certainly sounds interesting. I respect your choice to operate your character according to their own personality; most gamers (me included) think of their characters as an extension of themselves. (That, of course, also explains the distaste people have for playing a race they view as evil.)

The Altmer are an amazing race indeed, them and dunmer are tied for best sorcerers. And your right, the large majority of Altmer are not racist or hungry for power. Sure, its called the "aldmeri dominion" refering to altmer in a way, rather than the general alliance of all three races, and the purging of bosmeri families and politicians that tried to go against the treaty, and the kajiit just kinda merged into it, even though the new one tricked them into it. But all that is just lore, im sure the players are a lot better than the lore.