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It's a great game but...


Started by djwolf
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Let me preface these remarks by stating that I have had 12 years MMO experience in two raiding guilds in EQ1 and EQ2.

I love this game. I love the art, the story and wandering around harvesting and exploring but I am concerned that I will never be able to play it - not to its end game potential. There is, in my opinion, a massive flaw - the keyboard controls.

Obviously, other posters on this forum don't have a problem with "Cursor mode" or "paralyzed mode" as I like to call it, while a hulking monster is bearing down to one shot you but it certainly kills grouping, casual banter and being social for me. You have to walk up to the person you wish to communicate with so that you are targeting the person you wish to speak to and not the dozens of others standing around them, then you have this wheel... Too clumsy. I want my mouse. The "q" function... yeah. Forward! Oops hit Q. Attack! Oops hit Q... Bye bye potions. Hit 6 for emergency heal... Err, hold on, where's 6?

Every other game I've ever played used the right mouse key like a driving wheel while the WASD keys were the motor. This allowed the mouse when the right hand key was not depressed to roam freely all over the screen clicking skills and choosing functions even while you are moving. The downside with this is that you end up with some screen clutter. The upside is that the millions who aren't keyboard warriors with the Zen ability to know exactly where '6' is without looking or who can twist their hand into an arthritic-like posture to key in "E", "F", "alt", "W" every time they come to a container won't play a game where they look bad.

So while the current system sort of works while you don't know anyone in game, you are treating it like Skyrim 2, and you are running around crafting and opening chests, those less confident with their keyboard skills won't be raiding or playing end game content with ten hot keys and a greater expectation of expertise. After level 20 they will start dropping like flies and its a shame because it is a great game.
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Post #165927
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You can just learn how to use a keyboard and get use to it, not that hard. Also, it might be possible to make a add-on that allows the mouse/cursor mode be used so you clickers can click away. So quick to jump to conclusion when the game hasn't even officially launched (unless you're 'stralian)


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Post #165935
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Yeah, TESO was not designed to be a click fest like most other MMO's, so if that is the control scheme you like, I could see that making TESO a less appealing game for you. As Infamous stated though, it is possible (and if there are many like you, probable) that someone will come out with an add-on that will allow you to use the right mouse button how you like.


The fires burn. Our supplies are spent. Axes are dull, and armor is rent. The enemy approaches, our doom, they seek. We are Daggerfall Covenant. We are Orcs. Our comrades, they come, for glory they seek, at the side of our iron and steel. We will not fall.
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Post #165939
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Yeah, simple solution, learn to use a keyboard.
I remember doing touch typing in primary school oh so many years ago.

So I would think a large majority of people who play MMOs know how to use a keyboard.

You are also complaining because a portion of people who are unskilled don't get to experience content... Uhh... good?
WoW catered for people who wanted to experience end game content but had no skill. Now the game is so easy facerolling the keyboard gets you maxed leveled with the best epics.


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Yeah I agree with the OP, to a certain extent. First, I used my Logitech Setpoint softw to prog my mouse fwd/back thumb buttons to movement; and only in ESO (normal otherwise). This has a down-side, if you start using them you quit using the wasd, with your fingers out-of-pos, and IMO sidestep is a very important tool in combat.

But we have already discussed this, you should get a game controller for your L hand, I refuse to discuss it further. See rendolphe's posts here:
Dungeon Video : Fungal Grotto – Banished Cells – Spindleclutch

I wish I had the money for that Nostromo. Someday...
This post was last modified: April 3rd 2014, 01:37 PM by HalloweenWeed


Skyrim conquerer. Morrowind and Oblivion vet. Long-time single-player computer gamer W/custom-made hi-perf OCd PC. Mostly RTS and a few action games.
Noob to MMOs.
Crappy satellite Internet very laggy pings 700-1000 not god for gaming, can't play most online games but ESO works good enough.
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Post #165983
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(April 3rd 2014, 12:19 PM)Infamous Wrote: You can just learn how to use a keyboard and get use to it, not that hard. Also, it might be possible to make a add-on that allows the mouse/cursor mode be used so you clickers can click away. So quick to jump to conclusion when the game hasn't even officially launched (unless you're 'stralian)

(April 3rd 2014, 12:46 PM)Avidus Wrote: Yeah, simple solution, learn to use a keyboard.
I remember doing touch typing in primary school oh so many years ago.

So I would think a large majority of people who play MMOs know how to use a keyboard.

You are also complaining because a portion of people who are unskilled don't get to experience content... Uhh... good?
WoW catered for people who wanted to experience end game content but had no skill. Now the game is so easy facerolling the keyboard gets you maxed leveled with the best epics.

Ouch! Wow, you guys don't pull any punches do you? LOL
This post was last modified: April 3rd 2014, 02:15 PM by Lord Burl


The fires burn. Our supplies are spent. Axes are dull, and armor is rent. The enemy approaches, our doom, they seek. We are Daggerfall Covenant. We are Orcs. Our comrades, they come, for glory they seek, at the side of our iron and steel. We will not fall.
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I don't like the keyboard arrangement a bunch either and I haven't played any other MMO's so I don't have any experience with better systems. But you can bind important keys to where you want them, which helps a little. For instance, I detested the NumLock key for constant run - it's position's so lame - so I bound it to B for my left thumb next to V for Inventory.

But there's another important issue not mentioned in the main post... if what was said is accurate, then there's a world of other MMO'ers out there, that won't be used to this keyboard layout, and may not adjust well either! Makes you wonder, what was ZOS thinking, handicapping such a massive market right off the bat. Only time will tell...

But on the other hand, maybe those experienced MMO's looking for a fresh take on an old idea, might prefer not seeing a wall of clutter on their screens and will embrace this new system. After all, ESO can be a beautiful place most of the time - seen Aldermi Dominion lately? I like the clutter-free screen and will band-aid the keyboard layout to suit.

Having said all that, I do agree that it's difficult to select others to communicate with. And now I think of it, isn't there a "free roam" key or 'roaming cursor' key or some such? I'll have to check to see if that's an alternative to this limitation... it could be ZOS has taken this into account unless I'm mistaken. Have fun in ESO everyone.
This post was last modified: April 3rd 2014, 06:04 PM by GoNuts
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Post #166103
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You can customize the keyboard binds to change things, and there is a "free cursor" key - default is period i think. I changed it to V for one-hand on keyboard, one on mouse reasons.

Load game, enter a character, then click Controls at the left and Keybindings is an option.

Important keys to look at and put where you want them are those movement keys, mouse free, weapon swap, block, sneak and QuickSlot (you can change that from Q, i did immediately.)

I've found that autorun is my fave so that's my mousewheel button; right hand on mouse, left hand on left side of keyboard, woot game joy. Swapped Once I'd set things up in a way that felt familiar, hitting the modified "free mouse" button is a quick second nature act. Hopefully you'll find the same. I actually have a gaming mouse with keypad on the thumb side; could not live without it.

There's a list of default keybindings on the ESO official forum, if you copy that and paste into a spreadsheet you can roll through the game making changes to one character and note the changes in the spreadsheet. If you ever get reset to default or roll an alt, you can then quickly get back in control. (I rolled an alt and immediately started jumping in the air and shooting people instead of talking to them, such joy.)

I'm waiting for them to allow Keybindings to include modifiers, but for now at least being able to make mods to the default set is nice.

I had a huuuuge hurdle to overcome, being a mouse-reliant player in other games.

Good luck!

Also you can change via Keybindings your "action" button - usually E - to be your mouse button, so that problem/question can be solved for you right away.

I have my mouse wheel R for autorun, and an on-mouse button for E - so I can loot one-handed from the mouse.

People shouldn't get snooty - some things we do for ACCESSIBILITY, we can't all be keyboard jockeys. Some of us mouse left handed because years in an office have burned out our wrists and regular keyboard position - I can *never* again be two hands on deck for any period of time.
This post was last modified: April 4th 2014, 12:44 PM by Moonmoon
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Post #166113
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As a person with neuro issues in the fingers as well as trigger finger with thumb and pointer from years of computer use I'll say this much, autorun is the ticket.
I'm a console gamer making the foray back to PC gaming after many years absence (uh... doom?).
I use a trackball, mapped of course, as well as a cheapo game keypad from a Chinese company called Delux which is not mapped. I've rebound a few keys but for the most part I stuck with defaults. The keypad is setup in such a way that my lack of muscle memory can find the most important keys and everything I need to think about to find is off to the side or on the main keyboard. I suspect I will break the Q and the 3 keys soon enough.
This post was last modified: April 4th 2014, 01:33 PM by JackASCII


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(April 3rd 2014, 12:46 PM)Avidus Wrote: Yeah, simple solution, learn to use a keyboard.
I remember doing touch typing in primary school oh so many years ago.

So I would think a large majority of people who play MMOs know how to use a keyboard.

Wow that's a bit of an exaggeration. I took typing in school for years and I'm skilled in using a keyboard but that doesn't stop the controls from feeling awkward to me either.

The Q function with the wheel is NOT very functional. When you need a specific potion there's no time to hold q and scroll around to the potion you need and use it while your butt is getting handed to you.

Not to mention that you are given the option for tons of skills and 5 slots to use them? (and no, weapon switching doesn't count).

So rather than dismiss a legitimate complaint as "lol lrn2keyboord", you should actually offer some helpful advice or just not say anything at all.


Anyway, for the OP, let's just hope someone releases an add-on that fixes this, or hope that eventually in a patch there will be a control type option. That way, people that like playing in this mode can enjoy it and people who don't can play the way they like.
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The fact is that I will not "learn to use the keyboard" as some of you have suggested. What's more, those that have trouble with it won't either. That's because at least 50% of people who type gaze down at the keyboard to ensure that their hands are correctly aligned at the beginning of each word. In addition, this isn't typing. Touch typists use two hands so that each key already has a finger above it. That's not the case here.

But worse than that, the entire concept is clumsy. You talk of going on autorun while you chat. I haven't seen anything allowing a straight line of travel in this game for more than 10 feet. ROFL. Potions... I may want magicka or stamina or health but I won't need it by the time I've stuffed around with the Q wheel. How about the "R" key? You hit "E" on a container and you can use the mouse to select a single item and hit "E" to remove only that or hit "R" to take the lot. Why not hit "E" to open and "E" again to take the lot. It would be so much faster. Perhaps then the "r" can be used to simply respond to the last person that sent you a tell without all the extra keystrokes to change mode, select the category of communication... Wow, what a pain.

I'd like to respond to certain comments:

So I would think a large majority of people who play MMOs know how to use a keyboard.
Since every other MMO on the market is aware of my point and has not put all the work on the left hand, I don't see how that is possible. Where did they learn it? Certainly not playing MMOs.

"You are also complaining because a portion of people who are unskilled don't get to experience content... Uhh... good?"
Skilled at what exactly? You don't even know what EQ is do you? I haven't seen the end game content for this game but in Everquest it's hard and you need a lot more than good keyboard skills to get into a top raiding guild like mine. The keyboard/controller/mouse interface is just the means of being in the virtual world; its not the game. And the skills you need are fast wits and discipline not the ability to do stupid things quickly.
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Its funny because in just about every MMO you only need your mouse to turn your character.
You can play entirely with the mouse.

However in ESO you have to use both your mouse and keyboard, Which is good.
The 'Q' wheel I found is fine, I just memorize which potions are where and it takes no time at all to use them, not to mention you have one there to start with, in which you can just stack the most important one. therefor minimize needing to change anyway.
If they add more than 5 skills to your bar, then you just dropped the skill required significantly, because you then have to make one less difficult decision, it also creates the desire to have the same weapon type in both main and secondary.

People who come to a new game, and dislike the controls without a lot of experience, and then proceed to complain about it..
I just find that quite a bit disrespectful, there are a lot of people who enjoy the way the controls are set out, you even have the ability to re-map your entire keyboard for convenience.
So your complaint is that you do not like the combat system of the game, in which you hope they will 'fix'

So my helpful advise would be:
Do not play a game and demand it conform with other games.
I do not play UT3 and demand that it has the same controls as CoD.
If you do not like the button layout, you have the option to change it.

To me it sounds like you do not like the combat system, and you are not willing to learn how to use it efficiently.


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Post #166198
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(April 5th 2014, 12:07 AM)Avidus Wrote: Its funny because in just about every MMO you only need your mouse to turn your character.
You can play entirely with the mouse.

However in ESO you have to use both your mouse and keyboard, Which is good.
The 'Q' wheel I found is fine, I just memorize which potions are where and it takes no time at all to use them, not to mention you have one there to start with, in which you can just stack the most important one. therefor minimize needing to change anyway.
If they add more than 5 skills to your bar, then you just dropped the skill required significantly, because you then have to make one less difficult decision, it also creates the desire to have the same weapon type in both main and secondary.

People who come to a new game, and dislike the controls without a lot of experience, and then proceed to complain about it..
I just find that quite a bit disrespectful, there are a lot of people who enjoy the way the controls are set out, you even have the ability to re-map your entire keyboard for convenience.
So your complaint is that you do not like the combat system of the game, in which you hope they will 'fix'

So my helpful advise would be:
Do not play a game and demand it conform with other games.
I do not play UT3 and demand that it has the same controls as CoD.
If you do not like the button layout, you have the option to change it.

To me it sounds like you do not like the combat system, and you are not willing to learn how to use it efficiently.

I'm sorry but after reading this all it says it "I think the controls are fine and I think they're easy to use and I like the game the way it is so YOU should just QQ less and learn to like it."

And that to me is absolutely freaking ridiculous. It's nothing to do with conforming. Why do you think they let you alter the hotkeys, or when you buy a console game you can pick the control scheme you like the best?

This game was designed with a controller in mind, not a keyboard. And just because you think it's fine doesn't mean that it can't be improved. If every one had that mindset nothing would ever be improved. "Well, we released this new car. Ooops, the airbags don't work in 50% of them? Well, we released it already and since it's already been created it's good enough and we won't change it because the airbags work in SOME of the cars. Who cares about that other 50%"

And it's not disrespectful at all. That is an entirely silly argument.
OP made his point politely and rationally.. Just because YOU disagree doesn't mean it's disrespectful.

Not to mention, who cares if they add more options for other people? No one is asking you to change the way you play. If you like the awkward Q wheel, well good for you, have fun and I hope you enjoy your experience. But if they are willing to add options for other people, or someone is willing to make an add-on for the convenience of others, who are you to judge people for the way they play?

It isn't like it changes your game in the slightest.

It sounds to me like you have a slightly elitist attitude. And after playing MMOs for over 10 years, I think the MMO world needs a lot less elitist people and a lot more friendly and helpful community.

Oh and by the way. I have tendinitis in BOTH my arms. And I have since I was 12. So for me, it has nothing to do with not being able to use a keyboard, it has to do with enjoying a hobby without dealing with shooting pains in my arm constantly. So before you act like an elitist with knowledge of how everyone should run their lives, take a minute to appreciate everyone is different than you, and maybe there are other reasons than "that person is a NOOOOOB if they don't like the controls".
This post was last modified: April 5th 2014, 09:52 AM by MissHunbun
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Post #166202
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It almost seems that:

Everyone is different
Everyone deserves to be respected
Everyone is equal

Yes, even those that eat cake with a spoon and those that eat cake with a fork.

The overwhelming sense of community, compassion, positivity and respect that flows out of this thread is astounding.

Sanguine himself is red with envy that we have such a flawless, understanding, benevolent, considerate and respectful community.

Creepy

@djwolf

Quote: The "q" function... yeah. Forward! Oops hit Q. Attack! Oops hit Q... Bye bye potions. Hit 6 for emergency heal... Err, hold on, where's 6?

I hate assuming things so yeah, Is this an example of a problem you have had with adjusting to the control scheme?

I also think:
Quote:After level 20 they will start dropping like flies and its a shame because it is a great game.
I think that's a bit extreme, if It happens then it happens. But without well researched and developed information It's impossible for us to know if this will actually happen. Well, unless we have a crystal ball at our disposal.

It's unfortunate that you're having trouble though, have you already considered using a controller to see if you have better luck? @Civrules made a great post on using a PS3 controller with a PC or MAC here if you've not already checked it out, as an example of course, as you could always use another controller but yeah.

Another example you may or may not be aware of:

[Image: a26aacca8f9d106bf66ed2f8d588e023.png]
Quote:Stratejacket360UI is an addon that changes the user interface to something more practical when utilizing an Xbox 360 controller. The UI addon itself is currently under development, but the Pinnacle profile to use a controller while playing is available. I know a little about lua coding, but not much. With that being said, if anyone has any knowledge of creating a UI addon, your help would be much appreciated! If you are interested, please message me.

A PS3 controller version will also be added in the future for those that wish to use that controller over the Xbox 360 controller.

Taken from here

I've not looked into remapping the controls through the interface, I assume you've already tried and tested that though, but yeah. I've got no idea how to contribute to your original post other than what I've said here.

I wish you all the best fortune on your quest for control prosperity, Sithis guide you. Creepy


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Post #166208
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I keep on saying to myself I won't respond and then I read stuff that just sucks me back. Thank you MissHunBun and Teiji is right - it is a console game even though the console players are on a separate server to us.

There is a reason why every single PC MMO out there has the same keyboard/mouse controls with only minor variations. I'm sure they all thought "let's be different" but they were restricted by the practicality of an even balance of the work done between the left and the right hand. The whole point of the input interface is to be as non-intrusive as possible so that movement and action is natural and an extension of your own body.

The argument about what happens after level 20 was taken from my own experience. I am in my late 60s. I have been playing MMOs for 15 years and have subscribed to the Everquest franchise for the last 12 years and customers like me and my guild make games companies happy. When a game has been going that long the end content has to be pretty close to impossible for mere mortals to remain challenging and I am a proud member of a guild that conquers the epic content of every Everquest expansion that comes out. So you could say I am good at MMOs.

Up to level 20 players can harvest, tradeskill and explore without too much difficulty but once groups and raid forces become necessary to advance, your problems with the UI become everyone elses. It's one thing to stumble through as a single player but another entirely to have your deficiencies announced to the world. While the the 'tank and spank' strategies work fine with the first release later expansions must get creative with the boss mob strats in order to retain interest.

Console players do play Everquest but they generally don't stick around and we won't have them in our raid force because they can't keep up. Raiding is about lots of people all functioning as a single person and when you add in Ventrillo, Raid Hub, ACT and other raiding tools... Well, console games just don't have that depth.

Will I be using a console for ESO? You are kidding, right? What upsets me is that when they separated the console players from the PC players as regard to servers that they didn't give us PC players a PC layout because while you keyboard warriors are fine with the contortions you haven't taken on epic content yet so lets see who remains at the end game content. To me, this is a disaster for the Elder Scrolls franchise - one that I love. So I'm going to stick around and wait to see what happens.
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