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Jephre vs Dibella


Started by Idriar
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Generally Dibella is described as the godess of beauty and love in the meaning of physical relation. Her aspects also cover art, artists and sexual actions.

But there is another god dedicated to beauty: Jephre, better known to as Y'ffre, the Bosmer´s chief deity. He, of course, is dedicated to nature, protecting Valenwood`s fauna. But Especially the Altmer believe he was the one who brought beauty to the Blessed Isles, blessing the waves, beaches and most important the High Elves with beauty.

Jephre is mostly revered by Bosmer, Altmer (Mer) and Bretons.

Dibella is mostly revered by Imperials, Nords (Men) and Bretons.

The conflict of "men vs mer" is always important to TES Lore, so here we seem to have the goddess of beauty (and sex) on the men´s side and the god of beauty (and nature) on the mer´s side.

The thing about "men" describing the Lorkhanic led mankind (so everyone except Redguards) in TES can be taken literally. Elves are oftenly shown as effeminate and omnigenderous (like Vivec), the nickname of the Aldmeri Dominion amongst the Imperials is "Old Mary" for the soldiers appeared so feminine to them.

So we have "men" desiring women... so their god of beauty is female.

On the other side we have the unmanly Elves, whose gender is sometimes untellable. Therefor (or other reason) their god of beauty is male.

But there are other fundamental differences:

Dibella protects artists and is a friend of art. Creating something new, changing something, turning something into somthing else with the aim of creating something new, that is not yet... this can all be considered lorkhanic.

Jephre on the other hand is dedicated to nature and protects Valenwood´s forest from any harm. Harm in that case would mean change. It´s the preserving attitude of Auri-el, Anui-el and Anu. Also the "wild hunt" thing is nothing but bringing the era of the dawn back, when the state of chaotic change was not ended yet by Lorkhan´s trick. Even if this "change" appears to be something that is lorkhanic, it is not. Lorkhan´s change has always an aim and aims for creating something new. The wild hunt creates nothing new but brings back a previous state.

So...

I would say there is something I would call "beauty of men", the purposeful, creating and artificial beauty with sometimes lewd aspects.

On the other hand we have the "beauty of mer", mostly the preserving of existing, natural beauty, which also tries to restore former beauty, like the Altmer trying to be like Aldmer again.



Anyway.

The Bretons rever both, Jephre and Dibella. So I thought about this:

Wouldn´t it be interesting to have some sort of cult in the DC which worships both Gods as sort of divine couple, the two loving gods? Uniting the natural and artificial aspects of beauty?


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Octagonapus97
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(August 25th 2013, 03:30 PM)Idriar Wrote: Dibella protects artists and is a friend of art. Creating something new, changing something, turning something into somthing else with the aim of creating something new, that is not yet... this can all be considered lorkhanic.
I find this claim rather odd. The Altmer greatly value art and are arguably the greatest artists and sculptors in Tamriel. They pretty much consider everything a form of art.

Quote:Wouldn´t it be interesting to have some sort of cult in the DC which worships both Gods as sort of divine couple, the two loving gods? Uniting the natural and artificial aspects of beauty?

That would be interesting. It makes a lot of sense.


By arrow. By blade.
By tooth. By claw.
By shock. By frost. By flame.
The Aldmeri Dominion will dominate Tamriel.
Our enemies will fall until the Throne is ours.

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goddess of sex beats godess of nature

I dont hump trees
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The reasons behind the two aspects of beauty are that, Men live shorter lives and so come to appreciate physical pleasure and change more as they have a lot less time to enjoy them.
Mer on the other hand live much longer lives and can refine their tastes and values, so they are more drawn to other aspects of beauty such as Nature and as for art well Altmer are the best and most talented artists as in their search for constant perfection they can refine art much more thus creating the best artistic masterpieces.


Mer Over Man
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Post #92958
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(August 29th 2013, 08:13 PM)Isilmo Wrote: The reasons behind the two aspects of beauty are that, Men live shorter lives and so come to appreciate physical pleasure and change more as they have a lot less time to enjoy them.
Mer on the other hand live much longer lives and can refine their tastes and values, so they are more drawn to other aspects of beauty such as Nature and as for art well Altmer are the best and most talented artists as in their search for constant perfection they can refine art much more thus creating the best artistic masterpieces.

Stop portraying TES elves as having the reproductive instinct of pandas ;)

If the 'one or two children in the entire life' of 'The true Barenziah' was true... this was a disaster:

If 1000 women give in their entire life (500 years) birth to 2 children, so 2000 children all, then the birth rate would be 4 per 1000 women per year.

IRL birth rate of nations ranges from 8 to 20 per 1000 per year while death rate ranges from 2 to 30.

Morrowind and TES generally are dangerous places, so I assume a death rate of a more 'dangerous' nation, atleast something over 10:

...Elves would have died out centuries ago...
This post was last modified: August 30th 2013, 04:17 AM by Idriar


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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A Higher lifespan justifies a lower fertility rate as described in the real barenziah.

eugenics certainly dont help keeping the population high either...
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Post #95876
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Also, the children would grow up an have their own children, as would their children, and so on.


By arrow. By blade.
By tooth. By claw.
By shock. By frost. By flame.
The Aldmeri Dominion will dominate Tamriel.
Our enemies will fall until the Throne is ours.

Ulwe Wrote:Oh my gosh I love shish-kabretons!
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Post #95889
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I have to say that this thread has an excellent , well thought out and very interesting OP. The Difference in gender and Aspect of the Physical manifestations of the two gods of beauty do indeed reflect the profound differences in the character of the races who worship them. I'm pretty sure someone somewhere said that you can find no better way to measure a culture than through its art.
I'm not sure I agree with the statement "The Altmer greatly value art and are arguably the greatest artists and sculptors in Tamriel. They pretty much consider everything a form of art."
The Pocket guide to the empire, first edition: Aldmeri Dominion describe The high Elves as :-
"decadent and self-obsessed, and prize form and their own brand of manners or style as their main value. Aware of their aristocratic position, they surround themselves with riches and treasures, the works of great artists and the finest of everything, but have no real appreciation for any of these things. Each of them is concerned solely with himself, and as a result they do no real socializing; they meet and hold courts only to demonstrate their importance and power to each other. Rarely do they speak to the human ambassadors of Cyrodiil; when they do, their speech is full of riddles, or spell-words that enchant one to a satisfied madness."

With regards to sex and reproduction of the High Elves, Whilst the Altmer don't reproduce at any different rate from men one of the more horrifying aspects of the Altmer is that they do indeed practice eugenics.

"The theory that the High Elves do not reproduce as quickly or as often as humans is false. Rather, and to my horror, they kill nine out of ten babies born to them in their obsession for purity." - Pocket guide to the empire, first edition: Aldmeri Dominion.
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Post #95918
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Good find, but to be fair, the pocket guide to the empire series are written under the watch if the current emperor and are essentially a form of Imperial propaganda. While they can contain legitimate information, the context in which they are written makes it subject to bias and questionable credibility.


Master Pie-Man
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Post #95919
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Note that Gods are not only different in their worship but also in their actual presence.

Ill make an example most of you will know. Auriel.
He is the Elven god of the sun (or more likeley the one who escaped through it) and his power is quite clear to be seen in Dawnguard.
Well see, his Divine paralell akatosh is nothing like him.

In this case it goes even further than with other gods. Taking Akatosh and Alduin for example. You could say that both are but two aspects of the Aka-Tusk oversoul named Time-Dragon.

But Auriel is different for he escaped before. The Marukathi dragonbreak is as good a guess as everything else.
but im just trying to illuminate that some gods are not just the same that is beeing worshipped differently but actually a different entity alltogether.
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Post #95923
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I'm still not sure about the infanticide -- if it is at all true, 9/10 is probably an exaggeration -- but I think the section about the artists is propaganda meant to paint a picture (*ba dum tss*) of evil, uncaring, stone-hearted Elves.


By arrow. By blade.
By tooth. By claw.
By shock. By frost. By flame.
The Aldmeri Dominion will dominate Tamriel.
Our enemies will fall until the Throne is ours.

Ulwe Wrote:Oh my gosh I love shish-kabretons!
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then again when you consider their position in the world. Anything imperfect might aswell be a step towards padomaic tendencies. Forgetting what the Aldmer were and their true goal of escaping the endless torture that is Aurbis.

They might be uncaring, but thats because they abhor existence itself.
Its pretty metal realy...
This post was last modified: September 4th 2013, 04:44 PM by Sordak
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(September 4th 2013, 04:30 PM)Octagonapus97 Wrote: I'm still not sure about the infanticide -- if it is at all true, 9/10 is probably an exaggeration -- but I think the section about the artists is propaganda meant to paint a picture (*ba dum tss*) of evil, uncaring, stone-hearted Elves.

Well, I just go by what I find written down about it. I'll keep poking about and see if I come across any more passages in the Lore that are relevant/contradictory. The author of the pocket guide could certainly be bias against the Altmer. Or he could be completely factual and utterly accurate. For what its worth I think the account is probably quite close to the truth, but coloured with manish emotion.

Ooops, I just realised I've wanded off on a tangent.
"Wouldn´t it be interesting to have some sort of cult in the DC which worships both Gods as sort of divine couple, the two loving gods? Uniting the natural and artificial aspects of beauty? " - that was the statement.

Yes, yes it would. :)
This post was last modified: September 4th 2013, 09:22 PM by Dagoth
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(September 4th 2013, 09:20 PM)Dagoth Wrote: The author of the pocket guide could certainly be bias against the Altmer. Or he could be completely factual and utterly accurate. For what its worth I think the account is probably quite close to the truth, but coloured with manish emotion.

I agree with you that much. There was obvious Imperial bias against the High Elves during the war, but whether that bias lead to the spread of false information is another question. I wouldn't be all that surprised if infanticide was practiced, especially by fanatical nobles or officials, but 9/10 is ridiculous. With selective breeding already being practiced, presumably for many generations, infanticide wouldn't need to be used that often.


By arrow. By blade.
By tooth. By claw.
By shock. By frost. By flame.
The Aldmeri Dominion will dominate Tamriel.
Our enemies will fall until the Throne is ours.

Ulwe Wrote:Oh my gosh I love shish-kabretons!
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I think that we can probably both agree that most people who want to play altmer characters, aren't going to want to be thought of as babykillers, and by that standard, I should probably shut up about it now.
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