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Khajiit: Intelligence, Wisdom, Cultural Singularity


Started by Idriar
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This is supposed to be a debate sparked on the 'Why Bretons?' Thread. To not continue the off-topic discussion there this thread is created.

References:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content...el-khajiit
http://tamrielfoundry.com/2012/12/cats-of-eso/
http://www.tesof.com/topic-why-bretons?page=3 Where it began

We have already covered Skooma and are now at the Khajiit's intelligence, the subjective theme of wisdom, which is impossible to be judged here, and the Khajiiti relationship to property.

(January 29th 2014, 08:51 AM)Archmage Alator Wrote:
(January 28th 2014, 01:25 PM)Idriar Wrote:
(January 28th 2014, 12:25 PM)Archmage Alator Wrote: They're lore descriptions made by the devs. The most bloody stable proof one can get. Seriously buit if you decline that tehn I daresay you have nothing to do in any kind of lore discussion at all.

I say for the like fifth time that they are moderately intelligent. But they are not wise when they steal others possessions, as they know they'd hate if someone took their own personal possessions. They are not especially wise and moderately intelligent, how mnay times do I need to repeat that?

Even the Khajiit like their possessions, and besides that is a user-created article. If it had been lets say Lady Nerevar or Nordjitsu who had told me, I'd have believed it. But I can write and article but that doesnt make it true.

That they conquered half of Tamriel was because of they could shout down a gate or a wall, nothing could stand in their way. They bwould just blats in the gates and zerg in. It was not especially much strategy in that.

Some unussually gifted people appears sometimes, The Sage and Chimere Graegyn (An extremely great Breton mage who actuallt took on Mehrunes Dagon and won, though at a dire cost) is also example's of that. I am always careful with saying 'generally' due to the exceptions.

The problem is that you use the word wise and inteligent in the same meaning. Intelligent is objective, wise is subjective. A Breton, who is considered as vice, wouldn´t be considered as wise by Orcs. Their wise women on the other hand wouldn´t be found wise in High Rock, for worshipping Malacath and upholding the tribal order and polygamy and so on. 'Wise' is something else for each culture.

'Wise' for the Khajiit would be definitely the fighting monks. And whatever they consider wise.

And to the Khajiit not being intelligent:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content...el-khajiit

Nearly all ingame race descriptions use the word 'intelligent', and both Pocket Guides to the Empire do so.

Bretons are called repeatedly 'highly intelligent', while Altmer are once called 'extremely intelligent' or 'highly intelligent' later

The Nords, for instance, are not called intelligent. The word does not exist in their description. Are they therefor dumb? No, but intelligence is not their most predominant trait.

That the trait of intelligence is even mentioned proves that Khajiit are atleast above average.

I do not use them in the same meaning, I have repeatedly said how the Khajiit are moderately intelligent but generally not especially wise compared to other races.

Soem Nords are dumb, some are smart. However they are not generally especially intelligent, thus they are not named as intelligent. Also Took as I said in the difference of you I am very careful with saying generally. They are generally not brain-dead idiot but nor are they generally especially clever either.

Uesp can be corrected by other users, I do not trust Uesp especially much but its a good source for general infromation, but the Imperial Library and things made by the devs should always be your first and foremost source for TES lore. However I have seen many errors in Uesp, and for more complicated stuff its a terrible source.

This started with that I said that Khajiit does not fit into Ravenclaw especially well. The Khajiiti race are moderately intelligent that I have said, that is not wrong and I have not stated that tehy are dumb in any way. Though the Khajiiti race has not shown any outstanding wisdom. Some Khajiiti are wise yes, especially their elders, but in comparison to other races they are not especially wise.

Aye its a subjective question, but now we look on it from the perspective of a human. And from that view they are not especially wise. But then we can say it this way. The Orcs are more wise than the Altmer since they know how to craft better... But we cannot, as then all elf-lovers would come whining about it and I wouldnt even do so personally. As just because some race holds more wisdom in one thing they may be very barbaric and unwise in other things. While the High Elves are arrogant and strong in their opinions. They can be rather wise in much. For example their hate for men does not come without a reason. They are very cultured and have a good society (although at the cost of slaves...). There are other races that one can take examples of wisdom: Like the Imperials and Bretons.

They are not wise by deeming it ok to take other people's things. If you are not wise, then in the vast majority of all cases do not realise it. We are looking on it from a human perspective, we all agree that enslaving Argonians are bad and not a wise thing, but then from a Dunmeri point of view it would be ok. So that arguement is pretty poor.

Took you should be careful with saying that other people are wrong when you are not especially right yourself. It does not make you look wise.

I have answered on everything (I believe, its hard trying to reply on every point when its a 2v1 debate with rather long texts) and if this bothers others I can take this through PM, otherwise we can take in in a tavern.

Alator, your rating of races wisdom is highly subjective and biased. Claiming that Bretons and Imperials were an ideal of wisdom, while Orcs were wiser than Altmer is nothing but your personal opinion. Who is wise and not can only be judged from a certain perspective, therefor this question does not belong into a objective lore discussion. Your personal opinion does not matter. It's even not allowed to matter for you in this discussion. Of course, we all are biased, but from many opinions comes objectivity.

If you said something like Altmer/Breton/Khajiit find it wise, if someone/ unwise if someone... then this would be something to be discussed here. For instance, most other races consider the Khajiits behaviour as unwise. That might be right. But the Khajiits behavior is perfectly reasonable for them.

However, the mere mentioning of the 'intelligence' trait in the ingame race description of nearly every game implies with a certain emphasis that Khajiiti's intelligence is above average. Atleast their intelligence is mentionable. The intelligence of the Nord is not as is not mentioned. For that, they have other traits mentioned.

Furtheron, if they weren´t intelligent, how would they ever make the great thieves who they are?
This post was last modified: January 29th 2014, 11:19 AM by Idriar


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #138942
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*Facepalm*

Idriar I believe that you do not understand what I am saying. I was not serious when I brought up the Orc part and it was only to give a more extreme picture of what you are doing. We are looking on it from a human perspective now, wich makes my rating of races wisdom not 'Highly subjective and biased'. No more than yours. What someone would deem wise would another deem unwise. Would you consider a Dunmer wise if he enslaved an Argonian in loath of the Argonian and greed because he makes money thanks to the slave's labour, even though the Dunmer thought it a wise thing?

Also I believe this is like the tenth time I say this. They are moderately intelligent. They are intelligent generally, not highly so but higher than the most. Really cannot you comprehend what I am saying or have you just missed it all those times I wrote it?

I did not say that Bretons, High Elves and Imperials were an ideal of wisdom, they have done some non-wise acts themselves. But they have proved to be more wise than other races, again from our point of view.

If we brought in the race's ways to look at it into these kinds of things I could say that the Altmer were really dumb from that race's point of view. But that would be wrong from our view as they are the most intelligent among the ten races. Dont you agree?

I covered much of what you said in my pervious post that you have quoted.


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Post #139019
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(January 29th 2014, 12:21 PM)Archmage Alator Wrote: *Facepalm*

Idriar I believe that you do not understand what I am saying. I was not serious when I brought up the Orc part and it was only to give a more extreme picture of what you are doing. We are looking on it from a human perspective now, wich makes my rating of races wisdom not 'Highly subjective and biased'. No more than yours. What someone would deem wise would another deem unwise. Would you consider a Dunmer wise if he enslaved an Argonian in loath of the Argonian and greed because he makes money thanks to the slave's labour, even though the Dunmer thought it a wise thing?

Also I believe this is like the tenth time I say this. They are moderately intelligent. They are intelligent generally, not highly so but higher than the most. Really cannot you comprehend what I am saying or have you just missed it all those times I wrote it?

I did not say that Bretons, High Elves and Imperials were an ideal of wisdom, they have done some non-wise acts themselves. But they have proved to be more wise than other races, again from our point of view.

If we brought in the race's ways to look at it into these kinds of things I could say that the Altmer were really dumb from that race's point of view. But that would be wrong from our view as they are the most intelligent among the ten races. Dont you agree?

I covered much of what you said in my pervious post that you have quoted.

You said moderately intelligent. That sounds like not noteworthy. From that one could think you don´t recognize them as 'above average'. Their intelligence is apparantly noteworthy.

And it´s not me saying anyone or anything was wise or not. We have no mean of measuring how wise someone is, because wise is subjective. We can only 'measure' how wise he is considered by other people. And those people are certainly not we. "Our point of view" does not matter. Forget about it. Atleast aslong in lore discussion.

Of course, I have a opinion what is "good" or what is "wise" (like slavery is evil but yadda, yadda, yadda). And I admit, I am biased as I work against the Bretons in particular, but everything is backed by lore not by a mere statement of 'this is considered wise by our society'. Our society has nothing to do with Tes lore.

It might sound harsh, but you have the problem of being unable to put your morales aside, and to think outside the box while looking at lore.

You see a society of thieves in which property is not that important. Instinctively you think 'This is impossible!' Because for you 1. thievery is a crime, bad and unwise and 2. you can´t imagine that the Khajiit are not as hooked on their belongings as you are.

And this:

Quote:If we brought in the race's ways to look at it into these kinds of things I could say that the Altmer were really dumb from that race's point of view. But that would be wrong from our view as they are the most intelligent among the ten races. Dont you agree?

I agree, I agree.

But instead of just saying, that a races point of view is wrong, because we know how things are, we mustn´t stop the discussion about the races points of view at this point. To understand a race, you have to understand its culture, its opinions and relations to other races. You mustn't just stop and say that Altmer are evil or wise, because that's nothing but your opinion or someone's elses opinion. Those doesn´t matter. And for now you must stop to believe that the Khajiit society is impossible, because you think it is wrong ;)


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #139443
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(January 29th 2014, 02:17 PM)Idriar Wrote:
(January 29th 2014, 12:21 PM)Archmage Alator Wrote: *Facepalm*

Idriar I believe that you do not understand what I am saying. I was not serious when I brought up the Orc part and it was only to give a more extreme picture of what you are doing. We are looking on it from a human perspective now, wich makes my rating of races wisdom not 'Highly subjective and biased'. No more than yours. What someone would deem wise would another deem unwise. Would you consider a Dunmer wise if he enslaved an Argonian in loath of the Argonian and greed because he makes money thanks to the slave's labour, even though the Dunmer thought it a wise thing?

Also I believe this is like the tenth time I say this. They are moderately intelligent. They are intelligent generally, not highly so but higher than the most. Really cannot you comprehend what I am saying or have you just missed it all those times I wrote it?

I did not say that Bretons, High Elves and Imperials were an ideal of wisdom, they have done some non-wise acts themselves. But they have proved to be more wise than other races, again from our point of view.

If we brought in the race's ways to look at it into these kinds of things I could say that the Altmer were really dumb from that race's point of view. But that would be wrong from our view as they are the most intelligent among the ten races. Dont you agree?

I covered much of what you said in my pervious post that you have quoted.

You said moderately intelligent. That sounds like not noteworthy. From that one could think you don´t recognize them as 'above average'. Their intelligence is apparantly noteworthy.

And it´s not me saying anyone or anything was wise or not. We have no mean of measuring how wise someone is, because wise is subjective. We can only 'measure' how wise he is considered by other people. And those people are certainly not we. "Our point of view" does not matter. Forget about it. Atleast aslong in lore discussion.

Of course, I have a opinion what is "good" or what is "wise" (like slavery is evil but yadda, yadda, yadda). And I admit, I am biased as I work against the Bretons in particular, but everything is backed by lore not by a mere statement of 'this is considered wise by our society'. Our society has nothing to do with Tes lore.

It might sound harsh, but you have the problem of being unable to put your morales aside, and to think outside the box while looking at lore.

You see a society of thieves in which property is not that important. Instinctively you think 'This is impossible!' Because for you 1. thievery is a crime, bad and unwise and 2. you can´t imagine that the Khajiit are not as hooked on their belongings as you are.

And this:

Quote:If we brought in the race's ways to look at it into these kinds of things I could say that the Altmer were really dumb from that race's point of view. But that would be wrong from our view as they are the most intelligent among the ten races. Dont you agree?

I agree, I agree.

But instead of just saying, that a races point of view is wrong, because we know how things are, we mustn´t stop the discussion about the races points of view at this point. To understand a race, you have to understand its culture, its opinions and relations to other races. You mustn't just stop and say that Altmer are evil or wise, because that's nothing but your opinion or someone's elses opinion. Those doesn´t matter. And for now you must stop to believe that the Khajiit society is impossible, because you think it is wrong ;)

Lol it might have been my poor english that caused it then. To me, moderately is good but not very good. Or in this case for me they have rather high intelligence, but not very high as others. They have a oteworthy intelligence, but generally not among those with the highest intelligence.

From the point of the lore, and our standards, and other standars in TES such as the Imperial one. The Khajiiti are not especially wise.

I have some strong opinions and I am biased yes, atleast in these kinds of debates, the most noteworthy example is how I despise slavery, and one can see that in debates about that. But everyone have morales and opinions in debates, that is what shapes them. You have your own, I have mine. If we didnt have these we wouldnt be disagreeing on things, no-one is without morales and opinions in a lore debate. It's because we're human ;)

I did not deem it impossible, but from what I had seen, like that example with the amulet. I had a hard time believing you that they did not care about their possessions as you said. Also by our standards and that of the most other races thievery is a crime. That is why I did not deem them wise in that. You even said it yourself "From many opinions comes objectivity." if the majority deems it unwise, it proably is although those who do it might not agree.

Also why I am still argueing (beside the fact that I still do not deem them generally wise) is that I have not seen it in the lore, and I have read the most fo the TES lore. And you havent given me any reliable proof besides a fan-made article. Can you give me some solid proof that they do not care much about their possessions?


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Post #139544
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(January 30th 2014, 12:22 PM)Archmage Alator Wrote: Also why I am still argueing (beside the fact that I still do not deem them generally wise) is that I have not seen it in the lore, and I have read the most fo the TES lore. And you havent given me any reliable proof besides a fan-made article. Can you give me some solid proof that they do not care much about their possessions?

For that I sat down and searched for lore. I have still to read some ingame novels and would be happy to see some dialogue lines from Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

However, I found many out game descriptions claiming that the Khajiit had no concept like private property. No direct sources, like lore books, but apparantly developers guides, compilations and lore discussions:

http://books.google.de/books?id=7E6o0-_O...ty&f=false

http://skyrimforums.org/sf/entries/khajiit.146/

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind_talk:Khajiit

http://www.imperial-library.info/content...ooksellers this comes from Lady N

Quote:I've seen a strange scene on the streets recently. A merchant and his big servants were beating up a Khajiit who was caught stealing. Suddenly, a Dark Elf who was a Hlaalu came up, exchanged a few words with them, and they let the thief go.

Jobasha:
Some Hlaalu almost understand the Khajiit. Some Hlaalu... No, Jobasha cannot say.

[...]

"Dar" in a Khajiti name means "thief," but this should not alarm you. "Dar" is like the Nordic "Clever Hudvar" or the Breton "Arnand the Fox." A Khajiit with "Dar" in his name is clever, and maybe clever with his hands, but not always a thief by your odd Imperial property customs.

So many people wouldn´t discuss it wasn´t correct. Also, if they article was wrong, it would have been already challanged and/or corrected.


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #139830
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(January 30th 2014, 02:32 PM)Idriar Wrote:
(January 30th 2014, 12:22 PM)Archmage Alator Wrote: Also why I am still argueing (beside the fact that I still do not deem them generally wise) is that I have not seen it in the lore, and I have read the most fo the TES lore. And you havent given me any reliable proof besides a fan-made article. Can you give me some solid proof that they do not care much about their possessions?

For that I sat down and searched for lore. I have still to read some ingame novels and would be happy to see some dialogue lines from Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

However, I found many out game descriptions claiming that the Khajiit had no concept like private property. No direct sources, like lore books, but apparantly developers guides, compilations and lore discussions:

http://books.google.de/books?id=7E6o0-_O...ty&f=false

http://skyrimforums.org/sf/entries/khajiit.146/

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind_talk:Khajiit

http://www.imperial-library.info/content...ooksellers this comes from Lady N

Quote:I've seen a strange scene on the streets recently. A merchant and his big servants were beating up a Khajiit who was caught stealing. Suddenly, a Dark Elf who was a Hlaalu came up, exchanged a few words with them, and they let the thief go.

Jobasha:
Some Hlaalu almost understand the Khajiit. Some Hlaalu... No, Jobasha cannot say.

[...]

"Dar" in a Khajiti name means "thief," but this should not alarm you. "Dar" is like the Nordic "Clever Hudvar" or the Breton "Arnand the Fox." A Khajiit with "Dar" in his name is clever, and maybe clever with his hands, but not always a thief by your odd Imperial property customs.

So many people wouldn´t discuss it wasn´t correct. Also, if they article was wrong, it would have been already challanged and/or corrected.

Thank you for those sources, though I am afraid that I am still a bit unsure. I'd prefer if it was confirmed in some lore-book made by the Bethesda writers and not a fan-made thing (fan-made things can sometimes not be actual lore and be intentioned that way, like our RP's).

Though I do trust Lady Nerevar (although she has made a few lore errors herself, but everyone makes mistakes, no-one knows everything) as there is no real direct proof I am still unsure.

The majority of the people does not know that much of the TES lore. And it is possible that those who do just didnt bother, or could have been unsure as I am and therefore didnt want to engage in a lore debate about it.

Or: I looked through all of his sources he linked but I did not see a proof of what he said regarding possession. The only source that showed it was the lady N posted thing in the IL. However I said what I thought about that and with things such as this I believe that it needs more clear evidence as articles, even from loremasters should not be used as evidence as even if they say something it does not necessarily mean that its true. Todd Howard did make additions to it, however this appear to be an opinion from one Khajiit. It does not necessarily mean that all agree with him. A thief may not think that its wrong to steal but one that is might disagree etc. I am not disregarding your sources, but I am still doubtful.
This post was last modified: January 31st 2014, 12:54 PM by Archmage Alator


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To be honest i don't like khajiits that much but they have some of the most breath taking lore i just don't like the look of them to play a game and be a cat man/woman it puts me of from the start.
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