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Let's skip to the good part.


Started by hillmje
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This is just my opinion and I welcome any and all differing viewpoints and examples to the contrary.

It seems these days that video games, particularly rpgs have gotten better about letting you skip to the good part. By that I mean you once you've been somewhere you can fast travel there again without having to slog through the same enemies and perils you've already overcome. Not only that you can save your progress so that you can resume where you died or pretty close to it. I like that I am not forced to retrace huge portions of the game just to get killed again and sent back to retrace huge portions of the game just to get killed yet again. I'm talking to you super mario brothers!

I love that modern games make the game more fun and less frustrating. Dying doesn't frustrate me nearly as much as having to repeat the same content over and over just to finally defeat the boss or whatever it is i've been failing at. I think bethesda and a lot of other video game companies have been doing better at giving us the choice to skip to the good part and not force us to have to replay a bunch of content.

but i think eso is less skiptothegoodpart than their sp rpgs. specifically i'm thinking there are too few wayshrines for my liking. i want lots of 'em. some places it's a real haul to get where you want to go via wayshrine. it's like taking the bus. you walk half a mile to the bus stop; you ride a couple miles; then you walk another mile to your destination. more wayshrines on the map would be more time doing the things I want to do. oh, btw do any of you ever let yourself die on purpose because you want to get to the nearest wayshrine more quickly? skip to the good part.

also, i'm spoiled by saving and picking up from wherever and whenever i want. i don't mind having to run from respawn points in a dungeon so much. but if some npc is going to give some windbaggy speech every time i come in and fight them it can get old.

any thoughts on more ways eso could let you skip to the good part? or reasons why my whole philosophy of skipping to the good part is flawed and i'm not playing the right way?

jon
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Post #164277
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I agree with this. I'm a single mom and get interrupted during gaming on a frequent basis. I repeated the beginning of a dungeon (rescuing Lyris from Cold Harbor) three times and I finally signed out of beta in frustration. Either my son needed me to do something for him (first 2 times) or something messed up on the server side (last time). By the third failure I was just done. It happens I know but I was the only one in the instance and thought it was silly that I had to keep starting over from the beginning.
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i feel your pain. saving lyris from coldharbor was my favorite part of the game. if i had to keep restarting it, that would have spoiled it for me. having the option to manually save would have been much less frustrating and more skiptothegoodpart. sometimes in games where i can't skip to the good part i think, "who would like this?"

jon
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There are a lot of Wayshrines all over the place in ESO. I never really felt like there wasn't enough of them. You can fast travel to one for a fee or you can fast travel from one to another for free. I don't think it can get any easier than that.

Sure death sucks but you don't have to rez at a wayshrine. Just keep lots of filled soul gems on hand and invest a couple points in the passive that lets you rez once an hour without a soulgem.

The exception, of course, is Cyrodiil where you have to travel forever to get back to where you were unless someone rez's you with a soul gem.


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(March 28th 2014, 03:14 AM)Tabbycat Wrote: . You can fast travel to one for a fee or you can fast travel from one to another for free. I don't think it can get any easier than that.

sure it can get easier. More wayshrines and manual saves.

Sure death sucks

I'm ok with death. It's the repitition that bugs me. Plus i get impatient when game mechanics wont let me skip to the good part.

but you don't have to rez at a wayshrine. Just keep lots of filled soul gems on hand and invest a couple points in the passive that lets you rez once an hour without a soulgem.

Those are great suggestions but they require time and resource investments that interfere with skipping to the good part.

The exception, of course, is Cyrodiil where you have to travel forever to get back to where you were unless someone rez's you with a soul gem.

More wayshrines and manual saves could save you from having to travel forever in cyrodil. Why should you spend your game time that you paid for travelling forever to get to the fun when you could just be having the fun?

Jon

(March 28th 2014, 03:14 AM)Tabbycat Wrote: . You can fast travel to one for a fee or you can fast travel from one to another for free. I don't think it can get any easier than that.

sure it can get easier. More wayshrines and manual saves.

Sure death sucks

I'm ok with death. It's the repitition that bugs me. Plus i get impatient when game mechanics wont let me skip to the good part.

but you don't have to rez at a wayshrine. Just keep lots of filled soul gems on hand and invest a couple points in the passive that lets you rez once an hour without a soulgem.

Those are great suggestions but they require time and resource investments that interfere with skipping to the good part.

The exception, of course, is Cyrodiil where you have to travel forever to get back to where you were unless someone rez's you with a soul gem.

More wayshrines and manual saves could save you from having to travel forever in cyrodil. Why should you spend your game time that you paid for travelling forever to get to the fun when you could just be having the fun?

Jon
This post was last modified: March 28th 2014, 09:45 AM by hillmje
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Post #164391
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Do consider what it would have been like to see the big reveal in Star Wars. "No... I am your father." "Nuuuu!" And then some fight scenes. Without any of that dramatic buildup.

Part of the experience in Elder Scrolls is getting to feel how real the world can feel. It can give a great deal more meaning to all the action. That's why I've decided to roleplay through my leveling experience.

I understand how it may be for those with busy schedules, of course, and for that the wayshrines are handy. But even the mere existence of extreme conveniences can make the world a more shallow place. It takes either a fine balance or some added features.
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Just registered so this is my first post here, but ill start with a Hi Guys n gals!

But I wanted to comment on the subject.
Personally, one of the things I think is ruining games for several years now (especially MMOs) is the way they make everything so fast paces and isntantly accessible. Its like you shouldnt ever have to sit through one single dull second.

Instant travelling, instant respawn, no death penalties, no consequenses to the players choices or actions and so on.
It all just removes so much immersion from games and make them all about "quick fixes" and powergaming optimizations.
Massive Multiplayer Games today feels anything but "massive".
For a group of players it could be a big thing to move on and travel to the next big city in search of new adventures, but now adays its a click and a few seconds load and your there. Theres no sensation of actually being in this big dangerous world where you have to plan and think before going out on long travels.


ESO has many great things going for it to make it one of the top MMOs for a good long time, and ill admit i havent spent alot of time in beta but from what ive seen I think they might have aced the balance between convenience and dedication required from the players to actually appeal to players of both "sides".

Not everyone has every night available to spend at the computer, I certainly dont, but if one cant find a couple of hours at a time to spend every now and then, then maybe ESO isnt a suitable game?
There are so many convenient, superaccessible games out there already, please dont make ESO just another one.
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(March 28th 2014, 12:20 PM)Attackmack Wrote: Just registered so this is my first post here, but ill start with a Hi Guys n gals!

But I wanted to comment on the subject.
Personally, one of the things I think is ruining games for several years now (especially MMOs) is the way they make everything so fast paces and isntantly accessible. Its like you shouldnt ever have to sit through one single dull second.

Instant travelling, instant respawn, no death penalties, no consequenses to the players choices or actions and so on.
It all just removes so much immersion from games and make them all about "quick fixes" and powergaming optimizations.
Massive Multiplayer Games today feels anything but "massive".
For a group of players it could be a big thing to move on and travel to the next big city in search of new adventures, but now adays its a click and a few seconds load and your there. Theres no sensation of actually being in this big dangerous world where you have to plan and think before going out on long travels.


ESO has many great things going for it to make it one of the top MMOs for a good long time, and ill admit i havent spent alot of time in beta but from what ive seen I think they might have aced the balance between convenience and dedication required from the players to actually appeal to players of both "sides".

Not everyone has every night available to spend at the computer, I certainly dont, but if one cant find a couple of hours at a time to spend every now and then, then maybe ESO isnt a suitable game?
There are so many convenient, superaccessible games out there already, please dont make ESO just another one.

I agree with this sentiment. From a mechanical standpoint I'd have preferred to see far fewer fast-travel points that make it so easy to ignore the world. Some key locations like cities, ports and such are great, but I don't want to see imposing terrain turned to little more than a backdrop. Molehills out of mountains. It should be difficult to reach certain places.

I think one way to remedy this would be to provide fewer, more key locations for fast travel, and offer the additional areas as premium features or something. But that's not going to happen so close to launch, so I've got a different idea. Instead, we might visit an NPC in town and set an option to turn off our transportation.

Yes, it's the same as simply not using it. But my favourite example of how this psychology works is with SWTOR's cash shop system. Rather than providing bonuses to a free game, the free game had restrictions that were lifted through the cash shop. Same system, different words. And yet it made an enormous difference.


Aesthetics-wise, I would have also preferred a more logical system like carriages and ships rather than Star Trek-esque teleporters.
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Post #164408
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Do consider what it would have been like to see the big reveal in Star Wars. "No... I am your father." "Nuuuu!" And then some fight scenes. Without any of that dramatic buildup.


excellent point! obviously, there's a fine line between dramatic build-up and replaying boring stuff we've already done. and for each player that line is different.

Part of the experience in Elder Scrolls is getting to feel how real the world can feel. It can give a great deal more meaning to all the action.

see for me the experience of elder scrolls up until a couple months ago was being able to save any time and fast travel anywhere i'd already been.

That's why I've decided to roleplay through my leveling experience.

please explain that. i'm familiar with the word roleplay but probably not in the way you are using it. are you larping your video game experience? or talking to characters on your computer screen? or do you just mean escaping into the game with complete emotional intensity? i'm totally cool with however you want to enjoy the game. you can do any of those activities and still skip to the good part.

I understand how it may be for those with busy schedules, of course, and for that the wayshrines are handy.

oh, i do not have a busy schedule. i'm just spoiled by game mechanics that don't force me to repeat stuff i've already done. i'm so spoiled i am a little bit pissy about not being able to fast travel to indoor locations in elder scrolls/fallout. trekking through the same place and facing the same monsters over and over for me is boring. and if i have to wait through a loading screen i'm not just bored, i'm irritated. loading screens kill dramatic build up.

But even the mere existence of extreme conveniences can make the world a more shallow place. It takes either a fine balance or some added features.

i don't agree with that but i totally respect it. for me the shallowness comes from the lack of variety repetition begets. but i respect you disliking the mere existence of an extreme convenience. for me those extreme conveniences were the duplication glitch in oblivion and the fortify enchanting/alchemy/smithing exploit in skyrim. so i replayed the games and chose not to use those extreme conveniences to overpower myself. but just knowing they existed was always gnawing at me and tempting me...

little angel on the shoulder: "no, don't do it. remember what happened last time? you made the game way too easy and got bored."

little devil on shoulder: "c'mon just use the exploit to smith up some bikini armor that's as badass as dragonbone plate."

jon
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(March 28th 2014, 12:48 PM)hillmje Wrote: -snip-

Ah, I elaborated a bit on why I think this way in my previous post. I'll kind of restate what I think in this one, so you can simply reply to this if you want.

By roleplaying, I mean to say that I'll be taking quests a bit slowly, roleplaying with my guildmates as we explore the land.

I do think that we can find a balance. I think having to traverse the world makes it a much more engaging and meaningful experience (and it certainly gave WoW's latest expansion great reviews), and I'd like there to be an option to toggle off most fast-travel points. It's a matter of psychology, it is.

I think an addon will probably manage that, though. If one doesn't come out, I'll make one myself.
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Just registered so this is my first post here, but ill start with a Hi Guys n gals!

hey mack. welcome. i'm new here too.

But I wanted to comment on the subject.
Personally, one of the things I think is ruining games for several years now (especially MMOs)is the way they make everything so fast paces and isntantly accessible. Its like you shouldnt ever have to sit through one single dull second.


for me the elder scrolls series has never seemed too fast paced. some things are instantly accessible others are not. the pace was always set by me. i'm at the end of the mage's guild quest and i'm fighting mannimarco but suddenly i'm really hungry. so i just bring up the game menu and read lore books while i'm eatin' my sammich. mannimarco had to wait. but those lore books were not instantly accessible. i had to find them out in my travels through tamriel.

the only mmo i've ever played is eso beta and i've enjoyed it but i just wish it had as much skiptothegoodpart as skyrim/oblivion.

Instant travelling, instant respawn, no death penalties, no consequenses to the players choices or actions and so on.

in old timey games i hated hated hated having to see and do the same stuff i already did just because i died or needed to go back to some place or figure out what i had to do to move the story forward. and every dang monster encounter would trigger the stupid turn-based combat engine thing loading. no no no. i don't want to "pay my dues" as a video game player. i want to have fun.

It all just removes so much immersion from games and make them all about "quick fixes" and powergaming optimizations.

for me the removal of immersion is having to repeat the same stuff over and over again. going through the same place with the same monsters and scripted events/encounters, and the same npc dialog destroys my immersion.

for me, power gaming is not fun. if i'm too powerful there are no fun parts left to skip to.

Massive Multiplayer Games today feels anything but "massive".
For a group of players it could be a big thing to move on and travel to the next big city in search of new adventures, but now adays its a click and a few seconds load and your there.


if that means you can skip stuff that you've already seen and done then i think it's good. i don't know much about mmos but in other es games, once you've exhausted the possibilities of a place, you can bet you're just going to get more of the same from that place. say i'm south of riverwood and i want to go to whiterun. i've already been through that whole stretch of road before. i've been to riverwood and did all the quests, fought all the monsters, talked to all the npcs, explored every building, chopped logs, picked flowers, caught fish, and looted every darn barrel in the place. there isn't going to be anything new and fresh about the riverwood experience. rarely a dragon might show up but probably not. it's going to be the same as the last 20 times i went through the place. fast travel is my friend.

Theres no sensation of actually being in this big dangerous world where you have to plan and think before going out on long travels.

i don't think many games do that very well. i'd love to play games that forced you to micro-manage your survival.

ESO has many great things going for it to make it one of the top MMOs for a good long time, and ill admit i havent spent alot of time in beta but from what ive seen I think they might have aced the balance between convenience and dedication required from the players to actually appeal to players of both "sides".

if dedication meant traipsing through the same countryside with different content i'd be all for it. unfortunately, you know it's going to be more of the exact same stuff you've already done.

Not everyone has every night available to spend at the computer, I certainly dont, but if one cant find a couple of hours at a time to spend every now and then, then maybe ESO isnt a suitable game?

for me it's not about time it's about the richness of my experience. i like variety and surprises and content that is new to me. i don't like having to replay the same 10 minutes over and over again or having to go through the same stretch of terrain with the same exact scenery, npcs, and monsters that were there before.

There are so many convenient, superaccessible games out there already, please dont make ESO just another one.

i don't mind inconvenience and difficult access as long as that leads to more variety and is not repetitive. unfortunately, i haven't found a video game where that was the case.

jon
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Post #164442
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By roleplaying, I mean to say that I'll be taking quests a bit slowly, roleplaying with my guildmates as we explore the land.


now THAT sounds fun. see that would make the same stretch of terrain totally new and exciting because you conversing with others about the situation/environment.

i've been coming at this whole topic from the sp perspective. it all makes more sense now.

I do think that we can find a balance. I think having to traverse the world makes it a much more engaging and meaningful experience

well traversing as a group would be different than how i was thinking about it as a single player.

(and it certainly gave WoW's latest expansion great reviews), and I'd like there to be an option to toggle off most fast-travel points. It's a matter of psychology, it is.


the only things i know about WoW are that it is an mmorpg and there are kung fu pandas. i wear my ignorance like a badge of prideHappy

jon
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(March 28th 2014, 02:38 PM)hillmje Wrote: By roleplaying, I mean to say that I'll be taking quests a bit slowly, roleplaying with my guildmates as we explore the land.


now THAT sounds fun. see that would make the same stretch of terrain totally new and exciting because you conversing with others about the situation/environment.

i've been coming at this whole topic from the sp perspective. it all makes more sense now.

I do think that we can find a balance. I think having to traverse the world makes it a much more engaging and meaningful experience

well traversing as a group would be different than how i was thinking about it as a single player.

(and it certainly gave WoW's latest expansion great reviews), and I'd like there to be an option to toggle off most fast-travel points. It's a matter of psychology, it is.


the only things i know about WoW are that it is an mmorpg and there are kung fu pandas. i wear my ignorance like a badge of prideHappy

jon

Heheh, well against the community's wishes, Blizzard didn't allow flying mounts in their new land of Pandaria until after players had done most of the questing. People complained, but at the same time many also said it was the best questing experience they'd had in a really long time.

It forced people to experience the world. The world felt much more real because the terrain actually mattered, rather than just being background scenery. It was very vivid.

After getting flying mounts again, people felt like walking was a chore, and they started to care less about the world. I played without buying flight training for a long time, but then they forced me to do it just to play it. And the same thing happened; experiencing the game started to feel like a chore because it was too convenient to just skip it.
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I don't care for wayshrines or teleporting to begin with either. Not because I don't mind insta-travel, but because their entire implementation either ignores or makes impossible the implementation of immersion in many ways and actual dynamic content possibilities such as being attacked while riding on a boat (no matter how you may think about it, GW2's so-called "dynamic questing" system is anything but dynamic). Which according to a majority of developers, such is no longer a 2-way street, so we must choose between the former and latter and thus puts anyone wanting the insta-travel down as the enemy of those wanting immersion.

(March 28th 2014, 11:40 AM)Nemox Wrote: Do consider what it would have been like to see the big reveal in Star Wars. "No... I am your father." "Nuuuu!" And then some fight scenes. Without any of that dramatic buildup.

Part of the experience in Elder Scrolls is getting to feel how real the world can feel. It can give a great deal more meaning to all the action. That's why I've decided to roleplay through my leveling experience.

I understand how it may be for those with busy schedules, of course, and for that the wayshrines are handy. But even the mere existence of extreme conveniences can make the world a more shallow place. It takes either a fine balance or some added features.

Quite so.

Along with the idea of the small things not mattering, it's ludicrous to believe one's journey is any less important than their destination - as the small things in life tend to become the biggest, and without a journey the destination becomes dull. It's even better to make the destination part of the journey, too.


"Where choice begins, Paradise ends, innocence ends, for what is Paradise but the absence of any need to choose this action?" - Arthur Miller
"Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde
"There is the seed of all sins — of the vilest and worst of sins — in the best of men." - Thomas Brooks
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(March 28th 2014, 03:14 AM)Tabbycat Wrote: There are a lot of Wayshrines all over the place in ESO. I never really felt like there wasn't enough of them. You can fast travel to one for a fee or you can fast travel from one to another for free. I don't think it can get any easier than that.

Sure death sucks but you don't have to rez at a wayshrine. Just keep lots of filled soul gems on hand and invest a couple points in the passive that lets you rez once an hour without a soulgem.

The exception, of course, is Cyrodiil where you have to travel forever to get back to where you were unless someone rez's you with a soul gem.

I agree W/Tabby entirely. hill & mekat you may be better served in a different game, this one just might not be for you. The Elder Scrolls is not about getting somewhere; it's about the journey, exploration, epic battles that are also unique and not so common as to banalize them. Take your time going through Tamriel slowly, so you don't miss much, and you really will appreciate the journey, instead of wanting to just jump from here to there, ignoring everything in between. All those places in between are varied in content and build - I love it all. What is your ultimate goal? To tell your friends that you have been all the way through the game? To beat one or more of them through the game? What good is that? BTW, ESO saves wherever you were last, as if it is saving your game constantly.

ESO is like a delicious multi-course gourmet meal. You shouldn't gobble it up without stopping to taste the food. It's not about filling your belly, it's about the savoring of the experience. If you are in too much of a hurry to walk 100yds. (100m) accross the landscape, you should really do something else instead of playing this game.


Skyrim conquerer. Morrowind and Oblivion vet. Long-time single-player computer gamer W/custom-made hi-perf OCd PC. Mostly RTS and a few action games.
Noob to MMOs.
Crappy satellite Internet very laggy pings 700-1000 not god for gaming, can't play most online games but ESO works good enough.
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