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Misconceptions about Raiding


Started by Lycrates
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There are a lot of misconceptions I see about [/u]raiding in both sides of the fence. Mostly they involve seeing obsure dangers without anything specific being included. I think it is important to talk abotu these misconceptions.

So here the list of misconceptions I most frequently see:

A) As long as there is enough questing/dungeons/exploration/lore for PvE then an MMORPG is just as well off without Raiding

This is by far the most popular misconception I have seen about Raiding. It is a misconceptions that even the developers of ESO seem to have fallen for.

The truth is that while questing/dungeons/exploration/lore are indeed PvE content, they are not LONG LASTING PvE content. This type of content cannot engage players for, lets say, years to come. There is no reason to theorize about it, we can actually walk through the process of what happens when players get to endgame PvE:

So you hit 50, congratulations! Lets see what is there to do now in PvE.•You can do some more exploring. You can find a little better gear while exploring, find interesting and fun lore, find quests and fun scripted events. All that is great for the first couple of months or so after you hit 50. Relative soon you will be done with most of the exploring you want to do. I think it is safe to say that most people will rarely go exploring after they experienced enough of the world in the first couple of months.

•You can do Dungeons, and "Heroic" Dungeons. Thats a lot of fun too. You will run them 20-30 times and get the gear you want and experience the fun content. That will last also for a couple of months. You can even queue for Dungeons while you do exploring. I think it is safe to say that most players will sparcely run Dungeons after the first couple of months of getting to 50.

•You can do Dynamic Events like Rifts and Dark Anchors. That sounds fun for a while, but we know it gets old fast. I think it also safe to say that most people will spacerly do them after the first couple of months as well.

•You can do Group Dungeons and Adventure-type Zones that some MMOs have. Thats a lot of fun, possibly meeting other people there and doing content together and building community. Thats something players can do 30-40-50 times. I think it is safe to say that once people have had their fill of Group Dungeons and Adventure Zones they will rarely do them anymore. That content seems to be VERY fast to complete and you can randomly join groups and take down stuff. Lets be generous and give that type of content three months lifetime.

•You can do Quests and Dailies, but I think most people will agree that it gets boring fast.
Ok, thats about it. All these PvE activities are indeed great and fun. The problem is that all these activities cannot keep people enganged for more than 2-4 months. Do you really want an MMO that thrives for 2-4 months and then burns out as people leave when they have nothing else to do because of the lack of serious progression PvE content? I think the greatest example of this is GW2. GW2 is an excellent game, but with no serious progressions PvE content. (in fact endgame in ESO sounds exactly like everything that was in endgame in GW2, maybe with a little bit more focus in exploration). People in GW2 got to max level, then they toyed around with the content for a few months, including World Bosses, Exploration and Dungeons, and then they realised that they didnt have anything else to do. So they just moved on to other games. You certainly cant blame them.

Raiding adds longlivety to an MMORPG and this is how:

So you hit 50, congratulations! Lets see what is there to do now in PvE + Raiding .•You can do everything that was mentioned above.

•Now, you while you are doing exploration, Dynamic Events, Adventure Zones etc., you are also getting your character ready for the first organized Raiding. You need to know how play encouters, know your character and gear up for character so you down hard and challenging Bosses.

•You enter your first Raid with you Guild. Finally are at the first Boss. The encounter is a ton of fun and everyone plays and coordinates with each other. The Boss wipes the foor with you. In the next few weeks, slowly your guild gears up and learns the enounter. The encounter becomes easier and easier and finally you can your guild take that Boss down. Its time for the next Boss that will also take time to gear up and learn the encounter. All of that time you are having fun playing and coordinating with other people and builidng community and friendships, helping each other out to take down that challenge.

•After months, you have finally clear the Raid while having a lot of fun along the way. Not its time to do it on Heroic Mode. In the meantime a new Raid opens up so you want to try that too.

•This circle never stops, the game can last for as long as Developers are producing quality Raid content. People can play for years and years to come.
In short, Raiding not only adds community, guild pride and develops friendships and cooperation, it also helps the game last for years. Even if you dont like Raiding, it helps the game overall , which takes me to the next point.

If there is Raiding, then Developers will only focus on making Raid encounter which will destroy the rest of the game.

Raiding does not destroy other PvE content, it HELPS the creation of more Non-Raid PvE content.
You dont need to believe me. Just look at the facts. Games like Warcraft have thrived for years BECAUSE of Raiding. I think that reasonable people can agree that without Raiding, WoW would be dead today. Because WoW is thriving due to the Raiding, it can produce frequent quality non-Raid content. In WoW we constantly see new quests, new storylines, new World Bosses, new Factions, new or updated zones etc. etc. Blizzard NEVER stops creating quality Non-Raid PvE content.
On the other hand, lets look at GW2 which does not have raiding and is not thriving. It is no secret that ArenaNext has only been releasing a trinkle of new content when compared to WoW.

So Raiding actually helps an MMORPG thrive and it helps towards the creation on Non-Raid content. It is a win/win for everyone.
Personally, although I do Raid, even if I was not Raiding I will only play theme park games that have Raiding because it adds to quality content for everyone.

C) An MMORPG must have Raiding in order to thrive.

On the other side of scale that I have seen people insist that Raiding is important to all MMORPGs. Thats false. You can have games where players create the content and thus you dont need Raiding to keep players enganged. These Sandbox games live EVE are few in-between and we need more of them. But those game can completely thrive with no Raiding at all, and in fact are better without it.

Nevertheless, for Theme-Park games (like ESO, GW2, WoW etc.), Raiding is absolutely mandatory for the long term health of the MMORPG. Like I explained before in detail, players will run out of things to do in just a few months and move on.

D) An MMORPG will be fine as long as it focuses on good PvP.

Another widespread misconception.
Although there is a small niche of gamers who will play an MMORPG just for the PvP, there are other MMOs out there (not MMORPGs) that do PvP MUCH BETTER than an MMORPG will ever be able to do.
Games like PlanetSide 2, League fo Legends, MWO, the upcoming Defiance game etc. will always be able to do PvP better than MMORPGs which have a lot more baggage to carry and thus have to worry about server stability, balancing and other such MMORPGs issues.
For example, why would anyone play the softlock and hardlock targeting of ESO when they can play the amazing fuild and action combat of PlanetSide 2?

The rise of PvP only MMOs is fairly recent so i think this misconceptions comes from people still remembering DAoC and other such games. I think even Developers have fallen for this misconception. After all, back then the only types of online PvP were games like Counterstrike and Team Fortress.
Modern MMO PvP games had not arrived yet. MMORPGs should never compete with modern MMO PvP games. Modern MMO PvP games are here to stay and MMORPGs should focus on what MMORPGs do best. The RPG portion. MMORPGs should have fun PvP but they need to complement it with good long term PvE.


Ok, thats my 2 cents, please try to not flame too much.
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 08:46 AM by Lycrates
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You used the word 'fun' a lot when describing raiding.


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So raiding is long lasting? I just fail to see how limited amount of content to repeat during set amount of time is a properly functioning endgame. You repeat the same scripts, wait for a week or two for a reset in the instance, repeat. Few get rewards, most don't.

This is not only time consuming, but in a sub based game, you're paying a monthly fee to enjoy content for six hours a week, the rest of that time you idle at the capital city prepearing to scour through the same six hours of content, just so you hope that x item drops that allows your group to progress further.

In addition to this; PvP'ers aren't a niche, we're a massive market. And in today's gaming world, those who play MMORPG's solely for the sake of PvP outpopulate "PvE only raiders" by a ton.

If you demand raiding from your MMORPG, I suggest you move on from TESO, as it won't have it.

Should I start demanding full loot, just because its currently out and I enjoy it personally?
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 08:56 AM by Nehemia


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Yeah so how many raiding threads do we have now?
dont you think its enaugh by now?

You completeley mess up your own definitions.
Raiding as long time motivation?

You mean doing them over and over again till you got all the loot out of it? thats not good game design.
thats lazy game design.

Your claims on the number of raiders and PvPers is, as nehemia already said, just wrong.

The PvP community outpopulates the Raiding community heavily.
Also PvP is, compared to raiding, actually a longtime investment as it produces content for itself.
The notion that PvP in an MMORPG can never be as good as in a non MMO is silly.
why? because its completeley different kind of PvP.

how many non MMOs can have 2000+ people fighting? and actually make it work without having huge lags or performance spikes? i dont know of a single one.

Its just nonsense.
Raiding is just overyhped PvE for people that like to grind.

PvP is a true challenge.
And it is where the origins of this game lie.
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 09:07 AM by Sordak
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(March 21st 2013, 08:55 AM)Nehemia Wrote: So raiding is long lasting? I just fail to see how limited amount of content to repeat during set amount of time is a properly functioning endgame. You repeat the same scripts, wait for a week or two for a reset in the instance, repeat. Few get rewards, most don't.

This is not only time consuming, but in a sub based game, you're paying a monthly fee to enjoy content for six hours a week, the rest of that time you idle at the capital city prepearing to scour through the same six hours of content, just so you hope that x item drops that allows your group to progress further.

I never said that Raiding should be the ONLY game in town. The point I am trying to make is that Raiding is an important PART of the games overall longlivety. It is imporant to have BOTH casual PvE and Raiding.

Quote:In addition to this; PvP'ers aren't a niche, we're a massive market. And in today's gaming world, those who play MMORPG's solely for the sake of PvP outpopulate "PvE only raiders" by a ton.

Like I said, MMORPGs will never succeed anymore being pure PvP now that - for the first time in gaming - there are specialized PvP MMOs like PlanetSide 2, LoL, MWO, Defiance etc.
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Yeah one thing you forgot about when you hit lvl 50 you can then travel to other factions zones and explore the rest of tamriel so yeah you're not going to run out of stuff to explore.
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 09:09 AM by YzRavenzY
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(March 21st 2013, 09:02 AM)Lycrates Wrote:
(March 21st 2013, 08:55 AM)Nehemia Wrote: So raiding is long lasting? I just fail to see how limited amount of content to repeat during set amount of time is a properly functioning endgame. You repeat the same scripts, wait for a week or two for a reset in the instance, repeat. Few get rewards, most don't.

This is not only time consuming, but in a sub based game, you're paying a monthly fee to enjoy content for six hours a week, the rest of that time you idle at the capital city prepearing to scour through the same six hours of content, just so you hope that x item drops that allows your group to progress further.

I never said that Raiding should be the ONLY game in town. The point I am trying to make is that Raiding is an important PART of the games overall longlivety. It is imporant to have BOTH casual PvE and Raiding.

Quote:In addition to this; PvP'ers aren't a niche, we're a massive market. And in today's gaming world, those who play MMORPG's solely for the sake of PvP outpopulate "PvE only raiders" by a ton.

Like I said, MMORPGs will never succeed anymore being pure PvP now that - for the first time in gaming - there are specialized PvP MMOs like PlanetSide 2, LoL, MWO, Defiance etc.

oh yeah and DAoC did not exist.
And it totaly wasnt popular (because it didnt exist) right?

Bullshit! There have been quite a few PvP based MMORPGs.
Most prominently titans like DAoC and Shadowbane.
Both of wich had pretty big customer bases when they were fresh.
But those games are now almost as old as Everquest 1.

Also there is no casual raiding.
Casual raiding defeats the entire premise of it.
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(March 21st 2013, 09:08 AM)Sordak Wrote:
oh yeah and DAoC did not exist.
And it totaly wasnt popular (because it didnt exist) right?

Bullshit! There have been quite a few PvP based MMORPGs.
Most prominently titans like DAoC and Shadowbane.
Both of wich had pretty big customer bases when they were fresh.
But those games are now almost as old as Everquest 1.

Also there is no casual raiding.
Casual raiding defeats the entire premise of it.

Oh come on. Please ont reply if you are not going to read the post.

Let me repost ... again..

D) An MMORPG will be fine as long as it focuses on good PvP.

Another widespread misconception.
Although there is a small niche of gamers who will play an MMORPG just for the PvP, there are other MMOs out there (not MMORPGs) that do PvP MUCH BETTER than an MMORPG will ever be able to do.
Games like PlanetSide 2, League fo Legends, MWO, the upcoming Defiance game etc. will always be able to do PvP better than MMORPGs which have a lot more baggage to carry and thus have to worry about server stability, balancing and other such MMORPGs issues.
For example, why would anyone play the softlock and hardlock targeting of ESO when they can play the amazing fuild and action combat of PlanetSide 2?

The rise of PvP only MMOs is fairly recent so i think this misconceptions comes from people still remembering DAoC and other such games. I think even Developers have fallen for this misconception. After all, back then the only types of online PvP were games like Counterstrike and Team Fortress.
Modern MMO PvP games had not arrived yet. MMORPGs should never compete with modern MMO PvP games. Modern MMO PvP games are here to stay and MMORPGs should focus on what MMORPGs do best. The RPG portion. MMORPGs should have fun PvP but they need to complement it with good long term PvE.

(March 21st 2013, 09:08 AM)YzRavenzY Wrote: Yeah one thing you forgot about when you hit lvl 50 you can then travel to other factions zones and explore the rest of tamriel so yeah you're not going to run out of stuff to explore.

Exploring other factions will keep people busy a few months. It will not keep people busy for YEARS. which is the whole point. Do we want an MMORPG that thrives for a few months only like GW2?
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 09:25 AM by Lycrates
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(March 21st 2013, 09:13 AM)Lycrates Wrote: snip

Yes but you are making the assumption that it will take a few months to reach lvl 50 for all we know it could take the best player 6 months to reach level 50 also they are not releasing certain guildsand lots of area of tamriel at launch so we will get relativley steady flow of new content to keep us playing.
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You have made a lot of assumptions, and provide no facts to back them. Why is it that TESO can't make a pvp focused mmorpg? What is so wrong with that idea?

You said it's because other games will have better pvp. You don't know that, TESO hasn't even been released yet.

You said it's because of server stability and balance issues. The have designed and tested a server that allows 200 people on screen at the same time. They won't need to balance classes, because every class can do everything. There are very few restrictions in that regard.

You said MMORPGs should never compete with modern MMO PvP games.

Why not? I don't understand the reasoning behind that statement, especially when there is nothing to prove your point.


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(March 21st 2013, 09:40 AM)Grape Drank Wrote: You have made a lot of assumptions, and provide no facts to back them. Why is it that TESO can't make a pvp focused mmorpg? What is so wrong with that idea?

You said it's because other games will have better pvp. You don't know that, TESO hasn't even been released yet.

You said it's because of server stability and balance issues. The have designed and tested a server that allows 200 people on screen at the same time. They won't need to balance classes, because every class can do everything. There are very few restrictions in that regard.

You said MMORPGs should never compete with modern MMO PvP games.

Why not? I don't understand the reasoning behind that statement, especially when there is nothing to prove your point.

Well, think about it. Why play the soft-lock/Hard-lock gameplay of ESO when you can play the incredibly fluid action combat of Planetside 2?

You are not going to see a PvP MMO with Tab-target for example. Also, being made specifically for PvP, these MMOs can have greated PvP balance among other things. PvP MMOs are not restricted by the RPG aspects of MMORPGs and thus can specialize into something superior.

You dont have to believe me. Just take a look yourself. Feel free to compare ANY MMORPGs with modern MMO PvP games like PS2, LoL, MWO, Firefly etc. etc. I think the choice is rather clear.
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 09:50 AM by Lycrates
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(March 21st 2013, 09:13 AM)Lycrates Wrote: snip

just because you say something WRONG twice doesnt mean it gets right.
DAoC was applaudet for its PvP and is still fondly remembered by alot of people.
What you said is flat out wrong.

DAoC and Shadowbane have proven, a long time ago, that PvP is very viable in an MMORPG that is built around the idea.

you cannot compare LoL to ESO.
Neither can you Planetside 2. Both of these games are completeley different genres to ESO and your whole argument just boils down to you stating something false and just point there and say "look, there, thats my point, yeah that might look like i just shat on the table but thats about as much of an actual argument as youre going to get"
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(March 21st 2013, 10:00 AM)Sordak Wrote:
(March 21st 2013, 09:13 AM)Lycrates Wrote: snip
DAoC and Shadowbane have proven, a long time ago, that PvP is very viable in an MMORPG that is built around the idea.

What I am saying is that DAoC and Shadowbane would not survive in todays world of modern competative PvP MMOs.

DAoC and Shadowbane were good, but modern PvP MMOs are better in PvP. MMORPGs cannot compete in PvP with the new PvP MMOs.

If you are saying that someone will prefer PvPing in ESO, with is slower paced, soft-lock/hard-lock combat that in modern PvP MMOs that have raised PvP to a science, then I politely disagree.

(March 21st 2013, 10:00 AM)Sordak Wrote:
(March 21st 2013, 09:13 AM)Lycrates Wrote: snip
DAoC and Shadowbane have proven, a long time ago, that PvP is very viable in an MMORPG that is built around the idea.

What I am saying is that DAoC and Shadowbane would not survive in todays world of modern competative PvP MMOs.

DAoC and Shadowbane were good, but modern PvP MMOs are better in PvP. MMORPGs cannot compete in PvP with the new PvP MMOs.

If you are saying that someone will prefer PvPing in ESO, with is slower paced, soft-lock/hard-lock combat that in modern PvP MMOs that have raised PvP to a science, then I politely disagree.
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 10:14 AM by Lycrates
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Just to make sure I understand this correctly, you are saying that because there are no PvP themed mmorpg's that no one should bother to make one, because it will never be as good as games of a different genre?


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(March 21st 2013, 10:13 AM)Lycrates Wrote: snip

you realy just made me facepalm in real life.
Congratulations.
i think you are the first person on this forum to pull this off.

Modern competetive PvP MMOs? You mean like Planetside 2? Wich is a completeley different genre?
Or DotA? Wich is not an MMO?
Maybe LoL? wich is not actually a competetive game?
None of those are even slightly simmilar.


And you seem to misunderstand what DAoCs PvP was all about.
This is not about precise skillshots.
This is about positioning, planning, management and working together.
The soft lock system or stuff like that do not hinder the competetiveness of ESO to any degree.

See it on the flipside.
ESO has perfect server technology, is optimized for way more people onscreen than any non MMORPG game, has an engine built around the concept of 2000+ people PvP and an inbuilt fanbase.

You are just comparing completeley different entities.
Probably you never played DAoC.
I dont blame you. Its quite old.

But there is a reason DAoCs style of PvP is coming back. And its coming back big. And guilds will jump on it.

Now lets get back to your Raid Argument: you think raiding can compete with PvP in terms of competetiveness and playernumbers? because it simply can not.

And to take EXACTLY the same Argument as you did, just that its not wrong this time around: Raiding was fine in DAoC.
But how would ESOs raiding do against games like WoW that are entierly built around that concept?
Why would you want raiding in ESO when you can already do that in a gazillion of other games that followed in WoWs liking?

Why do you want them to prioritize something that is already there for you to expirience over something for a far larger fanbase, that has not been there for Ages?
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