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Rant on ESO

Started by Kilivin
Post #167842

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Daggerfall Covenant
So, I am currently not a level 50 so I can't speak to the end game. . but these are issues that ESO needs to fix as they all are a huge MMO flop to have. I understand people having differing opinions and views on these topics, but please. . if you're going to get into a discussion - please, support what you say with something and keep it civil. Let's not turn into a band of blundering babblers. Winking_grinning

1: Mount Levels
Now, to explain mounts fully. I buy a mount at either 17k gold or 40k something gold. Alternatively, I can pay $20 to get the 17k gold mount (as well as a race). Before continuing, I'd like to make this point A (let's call it) that ESO is a huge money grab from ZoS. To increase the speed, stamina, or carrying capacity of your mount - you must feed your mount either apples, hay, or oats respectively. This process costs 250 gold and can be done once every 20 hours. Any horse may have a total of up to 49 points invested into them (A level 50 horse is max).

So, let me ask. .What is wrong with this picture? Well. . . For starters, this is a restriction enforced upon players that makes them have to play for a long period of time to obtain something they might want. While this might sound like a traditional MMO thing to do, it isn't in the slightest. In most MMORPGs, it is seldom to see something have an out of play time timer. The only such timer that is common is that which high level dungeons have (1 week timers.. 3 day timers.. etc). So, in essence, ZoS is making you, the player, have to have their game for roughly 41 days (if you feed your horse at exactly 20 hours every day) in order to receive the "best mount."

Now, what are the issues with this system? One is that they have not created enough content in the game for people to take 41 days total time in order to reach VR 10. While a lot of people say that the ones who have reached VR 10 already have no lives, even those who go at a steady pace will find that they'll probably be VR 1 within a month. What is the issue with this? Well, for the most part it just means that when you reach 50 - it will take even longer to obtain the best mount.. which the longer you play, the more money ZoS gets from you.. I.E just a bigger money grab. We'll say this is point B.

You might be wondering, "If your entire purpose of this is to complain that ZoS wants money, go somewhere else." It isn't. While I'm not one to pardon ZoS for their greedy ways, I know it is to be expected. The real reason this mount system is such a bad implementation for an MMO is that it frowns on new players entering into the game. If you, a player who has gotten the game early, has a mount that is maxed out by a month & a half's time - that means a new player will take this same amount of time in order to match that. While, sure, it is to be expected that new players won't have as good a mount as player's who have played for over a month.. that isn't actually the case.

The fact of the matter is, the new player could have 300 hours in game time and you have only 50-100 hours in game time. The difference is that you have had the game for 980 hours therefore you get something better than he does. When how much you work for something becomes irrelevant (especially in MMORPGs), it makes that which you work for far less valuable in nature.

On top of all of that. . .stamina is a completely useless stat to increase for mounts since you can sprint after your stamina bar is empty. Not sure what ZoS was thinking there, but I can wager they were drunk when they thought of it.

"Oh.. oh I got an idea! Laughing let's.. let's make horses have a stat.. called stamina right..and when it goes away.. they can keep sprinting. HAHA Tongue_out_laughing "
Yeah. They were drunk.

2: Crafting Research
If you recall my issues with what was stated above, you might be able to gather my issues here. . making this section a bit shorter. Basically, when you research something for an armor piece - not only is it specific to the armor piece, but it takes time and you can only have a total of 1 (2, or 3 if you get upgrades) research going at a time. The amount of time for research can be decreased slightly via skills as well, but let's face it.. 20.4 hours isn't that much different from 24 hours.

Basically, this is just another thing that will make crafting extremely discouraging to new players as well. When they see that no matter how much time they put into crafting, there will always be those who started the game at launch who will have more researchables done than you. From that, they will be able to craft better items, more sets, and in the end.. be the best crafters. Not because they've invested more time in their craft, but solely because they've had the game for a longer period of time.

Basically, this is a system commonly seen in Zynga games like Farmville or Clash of Clans. No matter how much time I spend on my farm or clan, it still is going to take 8 hours for this improvement to come through - making my enjoyment of such a thing only come about when said improvements are done. MMORPGs aren't Zynga games. . . they're games with an allotment of hours thrown upon them, and if you make the number of hours required to get something separate from actual in game hours, you don't only ruin the experience for new players. . but you make the feel of progression in such things an extremely dull experience.

3: Guild Stores Don't Work
Now, this is already a topic I'm sure. I'm also sure that this is one thing that has been discussed multiple times. Honestly, I'm not even sure where to begin on this because it's so vast of a failure in my eyes now that I've seen it in play. I'll take it in points though. . .

A. Guild Unity
Guild unity and the whole idea of guilds being "together" and feeling like a family of friends playing a game gets demolished by Guild Stores. When the only real way to make money in this game is via selling your items, and the only way to sell your items is to people you want to work together with. . you can't form a stable guild store OR guild for that matter. What this creates is then players joining guilds known as "Merchant's Guilds" which only serve a purpose to sell items. Doesn't sound like TOO much of an issue, but here's the thing. . .in any large guild that tries to be unified - you get a lot of chaos brewed.

I personally have seen players join one of my guilds, and their sole reason for joining was to have a guild store. Given due time - said players then get removed because they don't work themselves in with the guild. Basically, all MMORPGs have cold players or.. "selfish" players. When in truth, these people aren't selfish so much as desperate since there is no way for them to make money. Thus, they enter guilds that are a real community and aren't very community like themselves.

Now, those of us in my guild that are like a community don't hassle over this... too much at least. The issue we have is that we're very helpful and nice to one another, therefore, majority of stuff goes into the guild bank or is posted for extremely low prices. In the end, it becomes almost a hassle to sell items at the guild stores because the prices are only maybe double what you'd get at a vendor. We've also had times where people will ask for items that are posted on the guild store and someone wants it. They then ask for the item for a discount or to be given because they're out of money from buying stuff in PvP to help the war effort. If the person says no, they're not being very guild-like and people don't tend to like them afterwards. . and if they say yes, they make no money. It's a lose lose situation. This is a prime example of how Guild Store ruin a community-like guild.

B. The Price is NOT right
Majority of the time, you will never find an item from one store or another that has the same price. Because prices fluctuate so heavily, there is no way for you, the buyer, to feel confident that you received an item for the right price. It's like being told you can ONLY search & buy from either Wal Mart or New Egg when searching for computer parts.. unbeknownst to you, Amazon has exactly what you want and for a cheaper price than both of those guys. This is not to mention the fact that any guild that actually HAS items up on the guild store almost always has a far more expensive price. If you don't believe me, join a community like guild and a merchant's guild. One sells that purple shield for 500g, while the other sells it for 2000-3000 gold (of which I've seen even higher prices).

In the end, the seller and the buyer will never be given a fair price for the items they sell and/or buy - making the effort you put into posting or buying that item much lesser.

C. WTS > Guild Stores
Well.. WTS as well as out of game trading places. The idea is this. If I am in 3 merchant's guilds - I can see the price range for 3 separate groups of players. The issue here is that I am given a greater view on what something actually costs. Therefore, I can take items from guild stores from all 3 of these merchant's guilds and re-sell them in chat to players who are unaware of the actual price of these items since they are NOT in these guilds. To the buyers in chat, they are getting the best deal. . and to the sellers - they make the most money.

To simplify this. . these "WTS" players are the exact same people who (in other MMOs) would take an item off the AH then re-sell it, increasing the price. The only difference. . is that nobody knows what the price was before he bought it. . so they're far more likely to take his increased price due to the lack of knowledge on what items costs what.

D. Ruthless Merchant's Guilds
I'm not sure if you're in a merchant's guild, but the one's I have been in and heard of always have the same mind set - To create an economy among 1000 or so people. To do this, everyone. . and I mean everyone has to buy AND sell items. . consistently! This is so crucial in such a small amount of players that guilds will force players to sell items and buy them or remove them from the guild. . what other choice do they have? The leaders have to keep as many active and buyer/sellers in the guild as possible so that the economy works. . and when 1, 2, or multiple people don't buy and sell - they're waste to be thrown in the ocean so that new blood who will buy and sell can join.

Now. . what's the issue here? Well.. there's only so many items you, the player, can obtain in a given amount of time. If you're forced to have at least 10 items on the market in a given guild and buy maybe 1-5 items a day.. you're given a pretty rigorous task. . one that starts to feel like a job. This is not to mention the fact that if you are in multiple merchant's guilds (which was ZoS' intention with the whole "join 5 different guilds" I assume) - you cannot satisfy all their demands. From what I've heard, it's damn near impossible to have even 3 legitimate merchant's guilds. Me personally have only been in one (had 998 people), and since been kicked because I couldn't meet the amount of items to be sold and bought.

In the end, you've turned a simple system of buying and selling to make money extremely stressful and work-like. We don't play a game to make money in said game like a job.
All and all... the game needs to do one of two things. 1. guilds have no player limits. . which - mark my words - would just make the game have 1 massive guild of trader's and merchants which would invite everyone on the server to it. 2. Make a real AH. HONESTLY, The latter is much simpler and serves the same purpose.

4. Lack of Thieves/Assassin Guild
Yes, yes, yes - this one might sound whiney, but there's a key point that lies within here. Now, I'm a templar and I don't do anything with sneaking. For the most part, I shouldn't even care about a thieves guild or assassin guild right? Not quite. . the issue here is that there are 3 types of armor and, in reality, 3 types of roles in any RPG since D&D version 1. That is. . Magic-user. . fighter. . and thief or "rogue."

Now, I can imagine some of you might already see the issue in making a "guild" for both magic-users and fighters, but leaving rogues out of the cut. . but I'll say it anyway. To put it simply. . rewards. The rewards I receive in the fighter's guild quest line will be generally heavy armor or .. you know.. "fighter stuff" .. where as stuff in the mage's guild will be light armor or staves and.. "mage stuff" . . Sooo.. what do rogues get? Nothing? Not quite. It's kind of obvious if you pay attention to what rewards you get while questing that majority of every quest reward out in the world are quest rewards.

I mean. . I get it - I do! Rogues need gear too. . but was it really necessary to release the game before you finished making 2 HUGE guilds; both classic to ESO, and necessary to make a stable reward system in quests? Idk. . maybe this part of the rant is a stretch, but it amplifies my disgust with them releasing this game so early. Could have waited till Christmas or something to finish this kind of thing and maybe finish some of their end game content as well (which I've heard isn't even in the game yet.)

5. I'm important right? WRONG!
This game has a tendency to slap me in the face when it comes to this. Every story-line I ever get invested in has one EXTREMELY horrid and gut wrenching aspect to it. That is, I am this all-important person doing stuff for people. . but in truth. . I'm not? I will refrain from giving examples as there are so many instances of this (one obvious one being the main story & guild quest lines) as there are so many. There have been so many times where I've had an NPC give a quest saying "You alone must do this and that." I do some stuff, then end up in a dungeon with 20 other people obviously doing the exact same thing I'm doing. . . Am I the only one that says that this breaks my immersion EXTREMELY?

I've had quests where I go into some dream state where I am in the eyes of some guy named.. googuhbuh or something. My task is to witness the death of Herald. I get into the dream state or whatever it is and there are like.. a dozen or more people who look exactly like me.. me who thought I was the only googuhbuh dream walker.. and they're doing the EXACT same thing. So, you get 20 googuhbuh's all killing herald at the same time in a group effort.

Like. . .what? I literally have no words for this. This is such an extreme immersion breaker in arguably the BEST aspect of the game (that is, the world and getting from 1-50). If I am told I'm unique, and I then see quite horrifically - dozens of other people doing exactly what I'm doing. . who were aaall told they're unique. . I end up feeling cheated and lied to. Not to mention I feel like my involvement in anything in the world is meaningless making quests and the entire RPG feel meaningless.


Honestly, I'm quite disappointed in the game as a whole. I will say though that Cyrodiil (when in a guild of PvPers on Teamspeak and such) - is likely the most enjoyable thing there is in the game. While I wish there they'd make nothing cost gold and ONLY AP.. therefore reducing the amount of AP that repair kits and such cost.. all things come in time I guess. Whenever I hear the words "I need gold to buy repair kits" I just get depressed on how difficult ZoS has made it to make money aside from questing. Note: I did not edit this. Just because I was a writer doesn't mean I don't have to edit things to make them look pretty. xD

Oh well. . . Suppose I'll get to 50 asap and just PvP then. For High King Emeric!

TL;DR - Get off of a forum which has stuff which is read.
This post was last modified: April 18th 2014, 08:07 PM by Kilivin

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Profession - Armorsmith Specialist
Class - Templar
Weapon - Mace & Shield
Occupation - Melon Bashing
Loves - Unicorns.

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cyfiawnder hiraethus, Thorenir
Post #167860

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Interesting post. I would like to pick up on a few things you've brought up. After playing the Beta I was sent a survey asking whether my background was in MMOs or from the Elder Scrolls series? What they didn't ask was how many of you have only played first person shooters and don't give a rat's about community, immersion or anything but hack and slash and loot till you drop. I say this because a great number of PC MMO players who care about community and the role playing aspects find the lack of UI choices, the ridiculous menu system and the need to learn to type one handed very off putting.

Concerning the mounts, ZOS seems to have taken the normal things that hook players into the game like a fast mount that can whizz at high speed around the countryside, and a lot of bag space so that you can collect all the ingredients to get immersed in crafting and made players earn them. But then I have seen so many questionable decisions in this game like account bound mailing systems and the inability to mail to yourself.

But all this pales compared to what is plaguing the game right now. After weeks of listening to ZOS promising action against the bots I went down to the Aldemari level 7 dungeon, Ondil. There were dozens of bots, well over 50 camping every spawn point, with names made by smacking the keyboard like "xxzihru" or "ccjjggox" and they were grouped so that you couldn't get loot and you couldn't complete the dungeon by being a part of the kill on the named. Not only do they want the loot: they don't want anyone else to get any either. I checked out several dungeons and the same was true wherever I went. This makes the game unplayable.
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Post #167887

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ZOS has already said thieves guild and dark brotherhood will be added in after launch. I don't know if they will be included with the Craglorn release or at a later date.

Crafting research is actually fine as it is. Granted researching that final trait takes an entire month but it makes crafting more worthwhile. I put more effort and time into it therefore I get to unlock the ability to use more crafting stations in the game.

Horse stamina isn't just for sprinting. The more stamina a horse has, the less likely you are to be knocked off your horse by monsters. People tend to invest more in going faster but they also tend to be dismounted more often because their horse has low stamina. Think of stamina as the difference between a slow moving seasoned battle charger that fears nothing and a skittish fast mount that will throw you if a bunny sneezes.
This post was last modified: April 19th 2014, 07:40 AM by Tabbycat

Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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Post #168044

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i cant say i really agree with the argument that its not right that a player who has been playing for longer than another cant have better stuff. . . .

seriously, time invested needs to see return from that investment.

the other stuff, yeah i can kinda see that. idk, i think the bottom line is if you are or are not having fun with hte game and in my case i am having a lot of fun with the game.

NA || Daggerfall Covenant || PVX/RP/Causual-Hardcore
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Post #168058

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I think you have a few valid points in your post (some are bugs, some are due to questionable design), but I feel that some of what you're having issues with are common "features" of current MMOs. They could have done things differently, but ZO, like any other development house that is controlled by a large publisher, has to balance investor risk/reward with mass-market appeal. This almost always results in "safe" but bland, middle-of-the-road, status-quo products. A symptom of modern, mainstream software development...

As far as Guilds go, I kind of agree with you. I personally think a global action house or want/sell board would've been nice, but my guess is that ZO was trying to give guilds more importance by restricting AHs to guilds. And if you allow huge numbers of people into guilds, then you basically have a public auction house.
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Post #168218

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Mounts are horrible, its amusing that I've yet seen a person on a mount that can outrun me in mistform. Whilst I do upgrade my horse, I've never really used it. It only increases your movement speed ever so slightly, but the animation makes the illusion that you're actually travelling slower on the horse.

Come, Unstoppable Eraser Rain
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Post #168228

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1. It seems like your issue with mounts can be summed up as it is a money and time sink, and you believe the best approach would have been to have them as only a money sink. I can see that. I think the reason that ZoS went with having to feed them, and limiting how often you could feed them, is a little bit of immersion/realism. Some people have mentioned wanting more realism, i.e. you have to eat/sleep or your character dies. I think this was ZoS's way of putting a little bit of that into the game, without it being to restrictive. Perhaps in the future they will introduce some new mounts, that cost a lot more gold, but will already be max level. This would satisfy those folks like yourself who don't want the time constraint, and those who prefer to feed their horse.

2. I completely understand what you are saying about the time system. I think the reason ZoS did this is because the best gear is crafted rather than dropped, so I think they wanted to make sure it took some time to get to that point, rather than having the market flooded with all the best gear within a month of release. I don't know whether it is necessarily good or bad, but if enough people don't like the crafting system, I would bet they will make some changes to it in the future.

3. I think everyone was skeptical of the guild stores, and I think that ZoS will end up putting in some type of global AH at a later date, because if the economy doesn't flourish, the game can't flourish. I think the guild stores was an impressive idea, just less impressive in implementation. I believe that ZoS thought the guild stores would be a good means of getting everyone more social, with guilds creating their own network of goods trades between one another, but people want to know they are getting the best deal, as you pointed out, and if they can't see that with the guild stores, there are going to be some complaints.

4. The exclusion of a guild for rogues is a head scratcher for me as well, but they have already announced inclusion of the thieves/dark brotherhood, so problem solved, although I will agree, one should have been in at release. As a matter of fact, I think it would have made more sense to have fighter/mage/thieves at launch, and include others at a later time. Only thing I can say is that I think implementing a justice/crime system was probably quite daunting, and may be the reason that the thieves/dark brotherhood are coming later.

5. Yeah, I think this has been one of the most common complaints, but other than creating an instance for each individual I don't see how they could have gotten around this issue. I know it might have been possible for each to have their own instance, but I would say it is likely they couldn't or wouldn't put the resources into place to allow for that. I don't know, I just kind of saw this coming since it is an MMO.

The fires burn. Our supplies are spent. Axes are dull, and armor is rent. The enemy approaches, our doom, they seek. We are Daggerfall Covenant. We are Orcs. Our comrades, they come, for glory they seek, at the side of our iron and steel. We will not fall.
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