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Tank Shield Wall


Started by Kilivin
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So, given the news about the retarded soft-lock system they're having in TESO got me really bummed about playing a tank in PvP. In regards to that, I thought of an ability for any tank-type class that could be used tactically to maybe grant a little bit of that "Guardian Angel" feel of playing a tank again. While I have no idea or even expectations that this move will be in the game I think, why not see if others like the idea? That move would be Shield Wall.

Shield Wall makes your character constantly have his shield up, and any other allied player is allowed to select you and stand behind you. Both players then move at a slower speed, and the player with shield wall active does less damage if attacking enemy players. Shield wall makes it to where enemies cannot soft-lock the comrade behind you until the player using shield wall dies or the Shield Wall is broken. Shield wall doesn't block enemies though any greater than around a 90 degree angle in front of you. So you can get around it. How do you break Shield Wall? Simply doing damage to the tank causes his stamina to decrease, and once his stamina hits 0 he collapses breaking Shield Wall & rendering him some sort of daze affect for a few seconds. Note, AOE affects still hurt both players, this is only for missle-type spells or a warrior trying to hit the archer behind the tank.

Again, no idea if they'd have something like this in the game. Still, I feel it'd not only add the Guardian Angel feel to playing a tank, but also give a lot of different tactics for those who are good at communicating. You could have a bunch of tanks with shields on a wall and then behind all of them archers stand. You could create an open field battle of destruction by putting a bunch of tanks in a circle and mages all behind them casting spells and such. Hell, to make it even more fair and not OP in any way, if someone gets hit with shield wall up as well as his stamina goes down he has to mash the skill quickly in order to maintain it. If you have more people focusing on you you have to mash it even faster.

Anyway, Feel free to give any other ability ideas. I just feel there NEEDS to be some way to be able to either decrease the damage done to allies or add some sort of defensive strategy that people can do. I really don't want to see such hectic PvP with people dying everywhere you can't even form strategies for defense. . while it can be fun to have hectic PvP sometimes, it ends up getting repetitive quite quickly imo. .
This post was last modified: March 15th 2013, 07:08 PM by Kilivin
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Post #50901
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Here's what I am thinking. The may have skills already in place similar to what you desire. Just because of the way the explained the soft lock doesn't mean that they don't have an ability you can use as a "tank" that decreases the damage a player recieves, % to hit/miss, increased damage resistance, etc. while they are in a certain proximity to you, or behind you, etc.
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Post #50909
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There are always two sides to the argument, and I'm approaching this directly through meta-games perspective. Imagine if that was the case, that tanks could block projectiles from reaching your allies. Sure, sounds awesome on paper, but its a meta-game nightmare. Now, since the game has no friendly fire, your team mates cannot accidentally shoot you in the back. This would mean that meat-shield wall is demanded for PvP, and Pve as well. Imagine the most fat people taking all the damage, and having healers (known to be AoE) to heal them, and behind those two lines is the DPS. All the fights would turn into "who is going to break the meat shield wall first."

Since we have no friendly fire, we truly cannot have this kind of a system. Otherwise it favors support too much.


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Post #50955
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or you let it block friendly projectiles too.
But its not a 2 side thing. there are 5 classes afterall. Meta wise id say there is a solution.

the reason i think this wont work is the way the targeting system works.
In the sense you discribed it, it could work if it had a "hit scan" system.

That means you point at something, the game automatically checks if there is a target at that destination.
many modern shooters use this system.

However from what we can see so far i think the soft lock system is not actually a hitscan system but much rather a traditional lock system hidden behind a target reticule.

That means that if you point at a target it makes no check on a hitbox there, but instead it "targets" whatever you mousover in the exact same fashion as it is in WoW.
In that sense the game does not differentiate between targets that are behind each other. The only way to implement such a system then would be to take away line of sight.
This would make the implications of the shield wall even worse, making it a physical object in the world. Wich leads to even more questions: does it block movement? (afaik there will be no collision in the game) will it hinder friendly abilities? how does AoE react to it?

The whole idea is good. But a mess to implement with the system as they have it (if my speculations are indeed correct)
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Post #51123
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Wouldn't you soft lock onto someone if they wandered between you and your target anyways? As I understand it, it's an auto soft lock onto whatever you are targeting. So yes, if you have an attack in motion it would hit your original target but then you would switch to the new target directly in front of you. Or am I completely off the mark with this?


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Post #51130
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as ive explained its no hitscan model.
By cycling through the targets you always select a specific one.

Only 2 things are checked: line of sight and range.

if its in range and line of sight the game will not check any objects in the way.
Quite frankly considering weve got PvP zones with 2k people in there, that could lead to some serious issues.
All in all the model they are using is flawed.
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Post #51148
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(March 16th 2013, 07:39 AM)Sordak Wrote: or you let it block friendly projectiles too.
But its not a 2 side thing. there are 5 classes afterall. Meta wise id say there is a solution.

the reason i think this wont work is the way the targeting system works.
In the sense you discribed it, it could work if it had a "hit scan" system.

That means you point at something, the game automatically checks if there is a target at that destination.
many modern shooters use this system.

However from what we can see so far i think the soft lock system is not actually a hitscan system but much rather a traditional lock system hidden behind a target reticule.

That means that if you point at a target it makes no check on a hitbox there, but instead it "targets" whatever you mousover in the exact same fashion as it is in WoW.
In that sense the game does not differentiate between targets that are behind each other. The only way to implement such a system then would be to take away line of sight.
This would make the implications of the shield wall even worse, making it a physical object in the world. Wich leads to even more questions: does it block movement? (afaik there will be no collision in the game) will it hinder friendly abilities? how does AoE react to it?

The whole idea is good. But a mess to implement with the system as they have it (if my speculations are indeed correct)

Well, people won't be able to walk through one another ( I would hope ) so the idea that this would just cause tanks with this active to be essentially something that breaks line of sight.

@Nehemia I don't think healers will be able to restore people's stamina in the game, so it'd more come down to how you build your character I think. . You could design your character to be a shield wall type person I guess with this kind of a move to where your role is to wall off enemies from the person behind you. Alas, this is all & all an idea in order to prevent this stupid soft-lock system to ruin tanking completely in PvP scenarios. .
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Post #51150
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(March 16th 2013, 08:16 PM)Kilivin Wrote: @Nehemia I don't think healers will be able to restore people's stamina in the game, so it'd more come down to how you build your character I think. . You could design your character to be a shield wall type person I guess with this kind of a move to where your role is to wall off enemies from the person behind you. Alas, this is all & all an idea in order to prevent this stupid soft-lock system to ruin tanking completely in PvP scenarios. .

Not to offend you or anything, but tank characters aren't as you imagine them to be. Tank character is a role of high survivability, that has some factor that generates "threat", let it be annoying debuff or passive damage output or anything that on longer duration would be of dire consequence. Because of this, tank characters force people to a choice; to ignore the tank character and suffer the consequences; or down tank character first, and since tank character has high survivability it "tanks" the incoming hits from team mates. In this scenario ,its completely irrelevant what kind of target locking system we have, as tank character should be forcing people to attack him, regardless of target system. If tank fails to do that, then the character is by no means considered a tank, but a meat-shield.


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Post #51161
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Ah I see what you're saying. Generally I can see the idea of generating 'threat' in a PvE scenario, but I'm more focused on how I can affect PvP with my heavily armored orc with a big ass shield. xD With that I thought maybe some sort of shield wall type move could be a cool thing to add to add a bit of strategy and a feel of protecting your allies in a sense rather than "tanking" persay.

Mainly, my definition for tanking is not to soak up damage but to be the thing that my allies love to have. In a way, I see them like a healer in that they're very much appreciated by the other troops on the field or what not. . similarly to how I'd imagine people in military think of an actual tank regiment helping them out on the field. So, in a sense I think of tanks more as the beefy hard but slow hitting power machine that can also provide cover and such things to their allies. That's also where I'd assume the word "tank" came from. . actual tanks. xD But that's just my opinion on them I guess. Smiling
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 06:47 AM by Kilivin
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Post #51181
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talking about PvP here.
The thing is. In PvE a meatshield with a taunt is perfectly viable.

In PvP a tank needs to hold the enemy hostage so to speak.
it needs something powerfull to coax his enemy into attacking him. Usually this is done in the form of a CC ability or a substantial debuff.

The word "tank" comes from withstanding alot of damage.
note how the word can, in slang, also refer to someone with realy beefy muscles...
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Post #52514
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I saw a video kinda on this topic. There were developers from Zenimax talking about the combat, and they got pretty in depth. one thing they mentioned was, as they were trying to make this more a skill-based system rather than button mashing, teams especially in pvp would need to use tactic a lot more. One thing they said they saw in tests were sort of a shield wall charge where those with shields would run, holding their shields up (just holding down the left mouse button and constantly blocking), and pretty much take all the damage they could as they closed the gap between themselves and the other players. Imagine being a ranger as a group or even just one lone tank charges you with his shield up, soaking the damage up and sword about to swing. this would be a great way to attract attention away from softer teammates. I think what you want is pretty much integrated into the combat system already, unless you want some sort of buff to be involved. and even then that can work into mechanics they've already announced i.e. the synergy ability. like say you have multiple sword-and-boarders in a group and they all block and rush. Maybe a synergy for that could be this shield wall, where automatically anyone running behind them is protected from all damage.
This post was last modified: March 20th 2013, 11:27 PM by Ferroc


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Post #52593
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(March 20th 2013, 11:23 PM)Ferroc Wrote: I saw a video kinda on this topic. There were developers from Zenimax talking about the combat, and they got pretty in depth. one thing they mentioned was, as they were trying to make this more a skill-based system rather than button mashing, teams especially in pvp would need to use tactic a lot more. One thing they said they saw in tests were sort of a shield wall charge where those with shields would run, holding their shields up (just holding down the left mouse button and constantly blocking), and pretty much take all the damage they could as they closed the gap between themselves and the other players. Imagine being a ranger as a group or even just one lone tank charges you with his shield up, soaking the damage up and sword about to swing. this would be a great way to attract attention away from softer teammates. I think what you want is pretty much integrated into the combat system already, unless you want some sort of buff to be involved. and even then that can work into mechanics they've already announced i.e. the synergy ability. like say you have multiple sword-and-boarders in a group and they all block and rush. Maybe a synergy for that could be this shield wall, where automatically anyone running behind them is protected from all damage.

Yah, even a small portion of the damage would make me happy honestly. I think I'm just a sucker for sword & shield type stuff, which makes me always want them to integrate the shield bearers in PvP on a more detailed level rather than just they have some extra armor or something.

I mean if you think about it, people who dual wield in most games tend to have a higher attack speed & are given flurry-type abilities. People who have two-handers will have very hard hitting slow attacks (possibly some whirlwind type move even). . idk, perhaps I just want a bunch of different varieties of shield bashing, haha. I thought other people get all these different variety of moves due to having a specific weapon, so why can't my shield do what it's designed to do? I mean. . shields in RL are designed to block projectiles (to some degree). Smiling
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 06:54 AM by Kilivin


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I also would like to see that the shilds what we wear play a significan rolle in the gameplay of the player who wears them. I realy dont like them as beeing an something passiv what you wear and have some block chances, i like it that u have to use them and hold them up so u can block, but also would like to see some shild attacks performed with the shield ( smashing someone with your shild in his face or knock someone down by running with your shild into him). Also i loved the Fiona gameplay from Vindictus where u had such kind of things, i realy had the feeling that i have an shield and that i blocked this attack.

Small vid about fiona from vindictus:
http://youtu.be/aI57hVpIwuo

Edith: forgot to mention shield walls.
This is something i loved in Warhammer, having an tank with a shield blocking other players if we could also build shildwalls this will be awesome, i am a fan of protecting and supporting my teammates and in an AvA game where you could use tactics like shieldwalls, this realy would feel authentic and i may not want to play anything other then one of this tanks :)

Also Shild Walls and holding them should maybe affect your resources like stamina, so u cant hold them for ever, also if this formation walks in an zone with fluid oil and a mage burns it up, the player will have to break the shildwall and this is an excelent time to kill (for example) the healer who are no more protected.

Yes this all will bring more variarity and strategy to the combat and pvp, but is maybe not so easy to implement :(.
This post was last modified: March 21st 2013, 01:08 PM by UncleBress
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I agree with Bress, a "passive" shield would both be imersion breaking and boring to use. I think they will make it "active", as it is in the nature of TES series.
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(March 21st 2013, 06:53 AM)Kilivin Wrote:
(March 20th 2013, 11:23 PM)Ferroc Wrote: I saw a video kinda on this topic. There were developers from Zenimax talking about the combat, and they got pretty in depth. one thing they mentioned was, as they were trying to make this more a skill-based system rather than button mashing, teams especially in pvp would need to use tactic a lot more. One thing they said they saw in tests were sort of a shield wall charge where those with shields would run, holding their shields up (just holding down the left mouse button and constantly blocking), and pretty much take all the damage they could as they closed the gap between themselves and the other players. Imagine being a ranger as a group or even just one lone tank charges you with his shield up, soaking the damage up and sword about to swing. this would be a great way to attract attention away from softer teammates. I think what you want is pretty much integrated into the combat system already, unless you want some sort of buff to be involved. and even then that can work into mechanics they've already announced i.e. the synergy ability. like say you have multiple sword-and-boarders in a group and they all block and rush. Maybe a synergy for that could be this shield wall, where automatically anyone running behind them is protected from all damage.

Yah, even a small portion of the damage would make me happy honestly. I think I'm just a sucker for sword & shield type stuff, which makes me always want them to integrate the shield bearers in PvP on a more detailed level rather than just they have some extra armor or something.

I mean if you think about it, people who dual wield in most games tend to have a higher attack speed & are given flurry-type abilities. People who have two-handers will have very hard hitting slow attacks (possibly some whirlwind type move even). . idk, perhaps I just want a bunch of different varieties of shield bashing, haha. I thought other people get all these different variety of moves due to having a specific weapon, so why can't my shield do what it's designed to do? I mean. . shields in RL are designed to block projectiles (to some degree). Smiling

I'm with yah. I've always been a sword an shield guy in the ES games, but in most MMo's i've played i have been DPS. I was really excited to hear ESO was aimed at allowing you to to use any armour/weapon combination, cause us shield/sword guys can run free haha. actually heres the links to some videos that discuss combat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDPuaU1xgY , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayT_9USmIbg . There's a part there wher eit actually talks about how shields aren't just defensive anymore, likethey can become an offesnive tool as well.


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