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The Thalmor - What Went Wrong?


Started by Mukmoo
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So in ESO, the thalmor seem like a nice bunch, a few heretics here and there, but overall minimal racism douchebaginess etc.

So what the hell went wrong to turn them into skyrim's thalmor? Also, this should help clear up the difference between Skyrim thalmor and ESO thalmor.


Gone to a better MMO, soz guys, it was fun.
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The hitler of the thalmor took over after the war.
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Hitler! thats what all that undiscovered nazi research money went into!
@!!!! you're a genius!


Gone to a better MMO, soz guys, it was fun.
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(April 26th 2014, 09:58 AM)!!!! Wrote: Tiber Septim took over after the war.

That's the real reason.

After the Alliance war the other two alliances fall apart. Ebonheart breaks up almost instantaneously as Dunmer go back to enslaving Argonians and they go back to defending themselves while Nords go back to fighting over who's the true High King with an interlude of peace every now and again.
Daggerfall is quite similar but less drastic. Orcs get Orsinium and live happily. The Bretons and Redguards get their trade... But when Redguard corsairs begin raiding trade ships again it sours relations a bit. The Orsimer settle down in Orsinium quite well until the Bretons and Redguards decide the Orsimer have breached borders, etc... and gang up on the orcs. Covenant gone. Orcs return to being the Pariah folk, the Redguards go back to being corsairs and annoying Breton merchants and the Bretons go back being 50 squabbling kingdoms with every baron with a castle claiming to be the rightful king.

The Dominion remains relatively peaceful and harmonious. No major known incidents. Importantly it stays a united alliance, largely due to the administrative work of the benevolent Thalmor officials from TESO. No longer at war the Dominion enjoys prosperity both in Economy and society as cultures further intermingle and the Dominion almost truly becomes one Nation of Mer.

That is until Tiber Septim, or Talos, rises and takes back Cyrodiil. He stands against the armies of Bretons and Nords and show that he is Dragonborn. The Nords swear allegiance to him straightaway and turn on the Bretons whom they defeat. Tiber Septim goes on to take Morrowind (treaty of the Armistice), Hammerfell and High Rock (Employing the use of his greatest weapon, obtained form the Tribunal of Morrowind, the Numidium to quell numerous uprisings and win many battles). He now controls most of Tamriel, all but the lands of the Dominion. He sees the elven and Khajiiti ruled lands as a threat to his new human empire. He prepares to make war on the now peaceful Dominion. The Khajiit see the threat of war upon the Dominion and not wanting to fight in such a war they choose to leave the Dominion in order to try and secure some sort of neutrality. They are subsequently attacked by the Empire and crushed by Tiber Septims forces after a valiant but short war. Elsweyr could nor stand the against the combined might of the other 6 provinces alone.

Tiber finally declares war on the Dominion (of Valenwood and Summerset) the war rages but the Imperial legionnaires find it hard to fight against Bosmer in the jungle, similarly the Empires Navy cannot match the Altmeri one and is unable to successfully land on the shores of Summerset. Tiber Septim decides to use the Numidium yet again. The Dwemer machine god tears through Valenwood and the nation submits quickly fearing the destruction of the Valenwood itself. Similarly the Numidium attacks Summerset, specifically the Capital of Alinor. Unable to destroy or hinder it in any way the Altmer move back. Alinor capitulates within ten minutes within which the machine commits carnage and kills hundreds.

The Dominion is fully dissolved and so is the Thalmor. Their function and purpose as the Diplomats and organisation that kept the Dominion together had been destroyed. What they kept had been destroyed by Tiber Spetim with unprovoked brutality. The 'Ayrenn-esque' approach to humans, that they are 'young and inexperienced' and that is what explains their actions and mistakes is gone as the pristine and 'un-humanized' Isles are part of a human Empire now. The Altmer drastically change their attitude to humans to a more hostile one. This is furthered when their religion is banned and replaced with the pantheon of the Imperial eight and now also nine divines when the Emperor the Altmer have learned to hate is declared a god.

The Septims rule for about 800 years and when the Oblivion crisis strikes the Isles are hit hard. The Crystal Tower falls to the Daedra (Altmeri 9/11) and the Legion flees back to Cyrodiil (as it does in the other provinces) leaving the Altmer to fend for themselves. The Thalmor, a small organization with no significant role anymore, still retains some militaristic features (remains of the old 'Fists of The Thalmor' now known as Justiciars) manage to rally the people into militias across Summerset and begin closing Oblivion gates in major cities and population areas. When the Crisis ends the Thalmor are hailed as saviors who saved the people of the Isles. They didn't of course stop the crisis, that was Martin Septim's doing (A deed which I see as Martin repenting the Septim dynasty), but they did lessen it in the Isles.

Since the Legion was gone they once again took up the reins of keeping the peace and stability in Summerset which is renamed Alinor after the Capital. The Thalmor are back and on the rise as their ranks swell as so their position and prestige. Soon Black Marsh secedes from the Empire along with Morrowind (due to Red Mountain) and Elsweyr. Potentate Ocato of Firsthold is assasinated, most likely by the Thalmor as he was an obstacle in the reformation of the Dominion. The Stormcrown interregnum commences and Orsinium is again sacked by High Rock and Hammerfell who use the opportunity to displace their Orsimer neighbours. Titus Mede, a Colovian Warlord takes the Imperial City and is named Emperor starting the Mede Dynasty. Not long after the Valenwood erupts in Civil war as the Camoran dynasty tries to get back on the throne an secede from the Empire but some of the Treethanes of northern Valenwood support the Empire and call in reinforcements from Colovia. The Camorans and their Treethanes are then aided by the Bosmeri Thalmor and the Thalmor reinforcements form Alinor. This coup ends with a decisive victory for the Thalmor as the Imperials didn't anticipate fighting against well organized Thalmor forces from both Valenwood and Summerset. Both Nations subsequently secede form the Empire and reform the Aldmeri Dominion. Back in their position as a Coalition government of the Dominion the Thalmor thrive. The Dominion cuts itself off completely from the Empire. The Borders are guarded and no one gets in or out. The entire two, former, provinces are completely silent for the next 70 years. Only things involving the Thalmro that happen in this time is the 'Night of Green Fire' in Sentinel 13 years later. After the 70 years the twin moos disappear for two years and when they reappear the Thalmor claim to have brought hem back. Grateful the Elsweyr Confederacy begins to cut ties with the Empire until after 15 years it is the two Khajiiti kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine which join the Dominion. The Dominion was plagued by Blades agents sent by the Empire to gather intelligence and commit acts of sabotage. This was highly damaging as it caused among others the 'Fallinesti Incident' and the Blue River Prison break. This caused the Blades to be considered a threat and the Thalmor launched an extended counter-intelligence campaign to find all Blades agents in the Dominion. With the death of Titus Mede and the ascension of the young Titus Mede II to the throne of a shadow of an Empire made up solely of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell. The Dominion declares war on the Empire and the Great War commences. The Dominion is highly successful, largely due to extensive spy networks the Thalmor had across the Empire. After the war is over and the White-Gold Concordat is signed. Talos worship is outlawed, the god who the Altmer saw as a monster is finally no longer allowed to be praised as anything more than a dead Emperor. Hammerfell secedes from the Empire and keeps fighting to till the second treaty of Stros M'kai.

Now what must be remembered is that the goal of the Dominion, and by that its government, the Thalmor, is to bring back Meri rule to Tamriel as it was with the first Dominion of Ayrenn. That is done by taking White-Gold Tower and securing Cyrodiil. Things haven't changed, that's still their goal. However this time an Empire still stands so it must be brought down. The reason the Thalmor behave like such douches is (well the war plays a part, they have been fighting humans for a while they have the right to dislike them) because they are supposed to create strife. The Justiciars are so harsh and punish any sign of Talos worship so severely, make up accusations, burn down villages, knock down doors in the middle of the night and drag men out into the night to have them 'interrogated' and killed because this makes men like Ulfric and his Stormcloaks hate them and above all hate who 'allows' this, the Empire which has no ability to do anything about it. The reason the Thalmor in Skyrim are the way they are is because they want the Empire to break apart.

We know there is strife in Hammerfell as there is the Alik'r quest in which we find out that Hammerfell is divided in some way as at least one house supports the Dominion and one is against it (perhaps the Crowns and Forebears situation has changed?) though we do not know which. The situation in Cyrodiil is unknown as well so we don't know how Cyrodiil looks after the war and under the Thalmor justiciarship except for the riots in Bravil which may have been somehow instigated but that's unbased on anything. High Rock could have also changed since the Corsairs took Wayrest in 4E 188 which could have unbalaced High Rock's unstable Kingdoms. But Skyrim is definately in strife due to the Thalmor. Ulfric was tortured by the Thalmor (Interestingly his personal interrogator was Lady Elenwen, later First Emissary of the Thalmor). The Thalmor Justiciars destroy Skyrims people from the Inside by brutally enforcing the Concordat which sparks the Rebellion when Ulfric kills Torryg.

The Thalmor are doing everything to bring down the Empire (After all at the council of High Hrothgar she remarks to Ulfric when he tells her she is not part of the Negotiations, "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons." a statement clearly meant to anger Ulfric further at the Imperials.),the last thing that unites the races of man, and thus stands in the way of taking Cyrodiil. As long as the Thalmor aren't sure that if they attacked Cyrodiil no one would come to aid the Empire, their work isn't done in it.

Hahaha... Most People aren't going to read me droning on about the Thalmor... But this is, I think Tongue_out_laughing , the full explanation for their motives and behaviours....


Mer Over Man
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Post #168811
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MMYESSSS... Now they'll see us for who we are...


Which is more difficult: To do as you wish? Or to have power and choose not to?
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Nonsense.

KINMUNE broke the Dwemercraft and escaped Saarthal, maybe a few years before the war. Or, Ayrenn herself found and escaped KINMUNE on her adventures. What matters is that they found each other. KINMUNE offered Ayrenn a look into the 9th era, to share all her billion previous users experiences and knowledge with her. But in secret she stole the mystery and power of the runaway queen, leaving an empty shell of her, assuming Ayrenn's form. In the role of the Queen of the Altmer her actions led 1. to the militarizaion of Sumurset 2. the gradual radicalization of the Thalm[or]. Both can be only witnessed centuries after the Soulbreak, for change is slow in the Altmer society. And KINMUNE did this all for she hates humanity. Humanity broke her, abused her and sealed her away to await the end of all WE. Now free and in charge of the Altmer she spread the rumor, to kill men is to reach heaven by violence, the removal of men is the uncoiling of the dragon which would break all Kalpa and end their material prison. Lies? Who knows. KINMUNE - Ayrenn - was murdered, but her spirit lived on. The Thalmor lost influence with the dead of the Queen, who they probably murdered. But then the TALOS organization showed up. Hjalti, Tiber, Wulfhardt and Arctus put their world domination scheme into execution and reactivated the Numidium. And the Numidium denied the existance of the Aldmeri forces which led to the surrender of the Dominion. Who did not bow to Numidium and Talos, his existance was zeroed. This shame deepened the hatred of the Thalm[or] for humanity, and now the TALOS organization, which achieved godhood. Zeal, brute force and political intrigue pathed their way back to power, and when the Dagon erased the last descendant of TALOS and the Dracochrysalis was destroyed, the Thalm[] knew that it was time to strike. Later, the Great War was the attempt to remove man manually. After that they went back to political intrigue and let the sons of TALOS shed their blood. In the end, the THALM wins. MK said so. And the mentors became the MenTo[we]Rs, but that is totally unrelated to what was written above.


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Of course that entire perspective is complete nonsense unless you consider Micheal Kirkbride Canon... That I do not... Such perspective takes into account ridiculous ideas of a future Tamriel, undocumented in anything other than MK's fantasies...

My explanation however is Historical and based on things we actually know from in-game experience. There is no 'Nonsense' in what I have said. But your explaination for the change of the Thalmor is unsupported. I'd rather call that nonsense...


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I call dragon break in the story!
Or perhaps there is a yet undocumented reason for the thalmor to change into the future (evil) thalmor.


He is in death as he was in life : rather screwed.
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THEY
ARE
NOT
EVIL!!!!!!!

I hope my explanation cleared that up...

*Clicks fingers and two 'Fists of The Thalmor' appear behind Isilmo clicking their knuckles*


Mer Over Man
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(April 26th 2014, 02:13 PM)Isilmo Wrote: THEY
ARE
NOT
EVIL!!!!!!!

I hope my explanation cleared that up...

*Clicks fingers and two 'Fists of The Thalmor' appear behind Isilmo clicking their knuckles*

That depends on your definition of evil.
Since they forbid the worship of Thalos thus limiting the people of skyrim in a very severe way I see them as evil.

It would be like forbidding worshiping god in any country.
This post was last modified: April 26th 2014, 02:17 PM by Iksarai


He is in death as he was in life : rather screwed.
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(April 26th 2014, 02:16 PM)Iksarai Wrote:
(April 26th 2014, 02:13 PM)Isilmo Wrote: THEY
ARE
NOT
EVIL!!!!!!!

I hope my explanation cleared that up...

*Clicks fingers and two 'Fists of The Thalmor' appear behind Isilmo clicking their knuckles*

That depends on your definition of evil.
Since they forbid the worship of Thalos thus limiting the people of skyrim in a very severe way I see them as evil.

It would be like forbidding worshiping god in any country.

Its all for a greater good (And that's what most major religions are all about)... The good of men killing each other while Mer watch and smile...


Mer Over Man
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(April 26th 2014, 02:22 PM)Isilmo Wrote:
(April 26th 2014, 02:16 PM)Iksarai Wrote:
(April 26th 2014, 02:13 PM)Isilmo Wrote: THEY
ARE
NOT
EVIL!!!!!!!

I hope my explanation cleared that up...

*Clicks fingers and two 'Fists of The Thalmor' appear behind Isilmo clicking their knuckles*

That depends on your definition of evil.
Since they forbid the worship of Thalos thus limiting the people of skyrim in a very severe way I see them as evil.

It would be like forbidding worshiping god in any country.

Its all for a greater good (And that's what most major religions are all about)... The good of men killing each other while Mer watch and smile...

The only purpose it has is trying to protect themselves.

But since people just get really mad, this does not work rather well.

I would even go as far as to say that it only radicalizes the worshipers of Thalos into something that will backfire hard in due time!


He is in death as he was in life : rather screwed.
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(April 26th 2014, 02:05 PM)Isilmo Wrote: Of course that entire perspective is complete nonsense unless you consider Micheal Kirkbride Canon... That I do not... Such perspective takes into account ridiculous ideas of a future Tamriel, undocumented in anything other than MK's fantasies...

My explanation however is Historical and based on things we actually know from in-game experience. There is no 'Nonsense' in what I have said. But your explaination for the change of the Thalmor is unsupported. I'd rather call that nonsense...

HERESY! That is what it is meant. It´s like saying "nice fanfic, MK" when he wrote Morrowind ;)

You know only from ingame, which is superficial. To ignore the rest is to ignore the Lore. That is your problem. All games are mere interpretations of the Lore. Aslong as you ignore everything else, you might be a good historian, but you didn´t undestand what is going on at all (like me, but I have a rough concept). Your explanation might be correct, taking only into account the books and going ons of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Then, yes, good explanation. On the other, your explanation is only supported by M, O and S. But as you did not mention Kinmune or the removal of humanity concept, it´s missing the most important bits. Bits you won´t find in any ingame book.

And your explanation lacked any caps, so how are we to take it serious, good sir? ;)


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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Post #168830
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(April 26th 2014, 02:26 PM)Iksarai Wrote: The only purpose it has is trying to protect themselves.

The purpose is to destroy the Empire...

(April 26th 2014, 02:26 PM)Iksarai Wrote: But since people just get really mad, this does not work rather well.

Yes they get angry... So what, they can't do anything about it... Ulfric does nothing against the Thalmor but he wrecks the Empire's presence in Skyrim...

(April 26th 2014, 02:26 PM)Iksarai Wrote: I would even go as far as to say that it only radicalizes the worshipers of Talos into something that will backfire hard in due time!

If by that you mean they'll 'rise up' or act then you clearly over-estimate them... The only real worshipers of Talos were Imperials and Nords... The Imperials are nice and docile in that respect and won't do anything to bring back Talos worship unless as a strategy to bring Skyrim back into the fold... But ordinary Imperials? What do they care about Talos...

And Nords? They have not the capabilities to 'backfire' on the Thalmor... The Thalmor are far more sophisticated as are their methods... No Nord Talos worshipers could do anything against the Thalmor even if they wanted... What a riot to destroy the Thalmor Embassies? They'd need considerable force to even breach defenses and defeat the well equipped and trained soldiers and not to mention mages. Kill Justiciar squads? The Retaliation would be swift and painful. Villages would burn... Skyrim at war? Whatever Ulfric and his pal Galmar have to say about going off to Summerset and waging war there on the Altmer, they have not the capabilities. What Armies? What Navies? Skyrim doesn't have the army to even threaten the Dominion... Not to mention how they plan to get there...

(April 26th 2014, 02:31 PM)Idriar Wrote:
(April 26th 2014, 02:05 PM)Isilmo Wrote: Of course that entire perspective is complete nonsense unless you consider Micheal Kirkbride Canon... That I do not... Such perspective takes into account ridiculous ideas of a future Tamriel, undocumented in anything other than MK's fantasies...

My explanation however is Historical and based on things we actually know from in-game experience. There is no 'Nonsense' in what I have said. But your explaination for the change of the Thalmor is unsupported. I'd rather call that nonsense...

HERESY! That is what it is meant. It´s like saying "nice fanfic, MK" when he wrote Morrowind ;)

You know only from ingame, which is superficial. To ignore the rest is to ignore the Lore. That is your problem. All games are mere interpretations of the Lore. Aslong as you ignore everything else, you might be a good historian, but you didn´t undestand what is going on at all (like me, but I have a rough concept). Your explanation might be correct, taking only into account the books and going ons of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Then, yes, good explanation. On the other, your explanation is only supported by M, O and S. But as you did not mention Kinmune or the removal of humanity concept, it´s missing the most important bits. Bits you won´t find in any ingame book.

And your explanation lacked any caps, so how are we to take it serious, good sir? ;)

He worked on Morrowind and that was actual lore. Part of the established world... There is a large difference between his works when he was with Bethesda and afterwards... Considering how Lore has changed over the series none of what he wrote for the future of the series when he worked for Bethesda and after he left is not actually true until, if it is, actually put in-game.
You speak of the games and Lore as if they are two separate things... Which they are in MK 'lore' but in the case of actual canon lore, the Games ARE the Lore...

If they aren't mentioned in in-game books or in-game then how are they true. How are we know them to exist in this fictional world. All we have are the words and writings of a writer who once wrote TES lore... I do not consider that part of the TES World until, A: Bethesda comes out and says MK is canon lore, or B: The next TES game features at least one of his concepts or proof of them.

And what, kind Sir, do you mean by "your explanation lacked any caps"...? Either you're blind or we understand different things by 'caps'...
This post was last modified: April 26th 2014, 02:54 PM by Isilmo


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Post #168841
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(April 26th 2014, 02:40 PM)Isilmo Wrote:
(April 26th 2014, 02:26 PM)Iksarai Wrote: The only purpose it has is trying to protect themselves.

The purpose is to destroy the Empire...

(April 26th 2014, 02:26 PM)Iksarai Wrote: But since people just get really mad, this does not work rather well.

Yes they get angry... So what, they can't do anything about it... Ulfric does nothing against the Thalmor but he wrecks the Empire's presence in Skyrim...

(April 26th 2014, 02:26 PM)Iksarai Wrote: I would even go as far as to say that it only radicalizes the worshipers of Talos into something that will backfire hard in due time!

If by that you mean they'll 'rise up' or act then you clearly over-estimate them... The only real worshipers of Talos were Imperials and Nords... The Imperials are nice and docile in that respect and won't do anything to bring back Talos worship unless as a strategy to bring Skyrim back into the fold... But ordinary Imperials? What do they care about Talos...

And Nords? They have not the capabilities to 'backfire' on the Thalmor... The Thalmor are far more sophisticated as are their methods... No Nord Talos worshipers could do anything against the Thalmor even if they wanted... What a riot to destroy the Thalmor Embassies? They'd need considerable force to even breach defenses and defeat the well equipped and trained soldiers and not to mention mages. Kill Justiciar squads? The Retaliation would be swift and painful. Villages would burn... Skyrim at war? Whatever Ulfric and his pal Galmar have to say about going off to Summerset and waging war there on the Altmer, they have not the capabilities. What Armies? What Navies? Skyrim doesn't have the army to even threaten the Dominion... Not to mention how they plan to get there...

(April 26th 2014, 02:31 PM)Idriar Wrote:
(April 26th 2014, 02:05 PM)Isilmo Wrote: Of course that entire perspective is complete nonsense unless you consider Micheal Kirkbride Canon... That I do not... Such perspective takes into account ridiculous ideas of a future Tamriel, undocumented in anything other than MK's fantasies...

My explanation however is Historical and based on things we actually know from in-game experience. There is no 'Nonsense' in what I have said. But your explaination for the change of the Thalmor is unsupported. I'd rather call that nonsense...

HERESY! That is what it is meant. It´s like saying "nice fanfic, MK" when he wrote Morrowind ;)

You know only from ingame, which is superficial. To ignore the rest is to ignore the Lore. That is your problem. All games are mere interpretations of the Lore. Aslong as you ignore everything else, you might be a good historian, but you didn´t undestand what is going on at all (like me, but I have a rough concept). Your explanation might be correct, taking only into account the books and going ons of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Then, yes, good explanation. On the other, your explanation is only supported by M, O and S. But as you did not mention Kinmune or the removal of humanity concept, it´s missing the most important bits. Bits you won´t find in any ingame book.

And your explanation lacked any caps, so how are we to take it serious, good sir? ;)

He worked on Morrowind and that was actual lore. Part of the established world... There is a large difference between his works when he was with Bethesda and afterwards... Considering how Lore has changed over the series none of what he wrote for the future of the series when he worked for Bethesda and after he left is not actually true until, if it is, actually put in-game.
You speak of the games and Lore as if they are two separate things... Which they are in MK 'lore' but in the case of actual canon lore, the Games ARE the Lore...

If they aren't mentioned in in-game books or in-game then how are they true. How are we know them to exist in this fictional world. All we have are the words and writings of a writer who once wrote TES lore... I do not consider that part of the TES World until, A: Bethesda comes out and says MK is canon lore, or B: The next TES game features at least one of his concepts or proof of them.

And what, kind Sir, do you mean by "your explanation lacked any caps"...? Either you're blind or we understand different things by 'caps'...

Pfft, that was a joke ;) Your explanation has no CAPS like in KINMUNE or TALOS. It would have given your explanation something.

But as you don´t care for anything else but the games, I guess I can´t help you anyway. The TES trademark belongs to Bethesda. Lore does not have a trademark to it. No matter what Bethesda does. Schick and the loremaster of Bethesda do nothing wrong. The games do not contradict the lore (only in minor details). And in the games there is (nearly) no wrong content. The games are not everything, but without the games everything would be nothing.

And aslong you don´t understand that, your understanding of Lore will be always narrowed down to the games. Not wrong but superficial. Accurate only in dates, like a wikia. Like Shoddycast.
This post was last modified: April 26th 2014, 03:24 PM by Idriar


Who controls the Septim crown?
Who keeps the Allesian Heresy down?
We do, we do

Who knocked Yokuda off the maps?
Who keeps the Dwemer under wraps?
We do, we do

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