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trust system; dynamic same-faction pvp


Started by confusion
Post #950
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I posted this thread some time ago on that other forum, but it died without notice among the skyrim threads aand confused wanderers, so I thought I might share it here, for the critique of my more esteemed and well-read colleagues.

The Trust System

So all out pvp is unfortunately unviable due to douchebags and griefers in general but there is way to get around this. When you join a guild, when you form a group, when you become brothers in a holy order, it is because you trust each other. You trust them not to stab you in the back; this is because that is exactly what they can do when you enter these situations. By only allowing same-faction free pvp in situations where one would normally never have reason to use it, and in situations where it will have real consequences, we make it much less common and much more potent. For example, anyone in the same guild may attempt to kill each other but have no reason to, unless treachery is afoot, or someone has been slighted. Even in this case it is not an immediate or definitive end to the situation because of the organic (not game enforced, but player enforced) consequence of being kicked from the guild, fined, or killed yourself in retaliation.
Entering a trust group may also enable an untrused group, or only an untrusted group, for example any dunmer in the morag tong would have free pvp against any members of their own faction who are in the dark brotherhood, and vice versa. Ideally, any group markers or pvp flags would be invisible for maximum intrigue and discouragement of random pvp; one could only reliably attack another of their faction after getting to know them as a character and becoming aware of their allegiances, perhaps even making allegiances of their own to suit.

While discouraging same-faction pvp is the idea, at the other end of the spectrum it is possible that guilds would develop which are little more than constant internal battles. In certain circumstances, for example bloodlusting orc war parties, the ever divided great houses of the dunmer, and the politically unstable kingdoms of bretony, this would be acceptable.

The primary intent of this system is allowing for the backstabbing and double-dealing amongst adventurers and mercenaries that we all love reading about in pulp novels throughout the elder scrolls series, without at the same time enabling griefing asshats that would run through town squares killing anyone and everyone they can.
In other words, to make treachery a possibility, but one that requires so much more finesse, forethought, and actual effort than the typical "lol I ganked u" that we are accustomed to in modern mmos.
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Sparhawk
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Kudos, you've clearly thought this out, and you know the lore. A few points:
1. I think they'd want to sit on this until the factions have been established, which leads to:
2. Even once everyone's got comfy, I think this could *possibly* still lead to more fighting internally than between factions.
3. It could also mean that guilds become very insular, with people only having a large number of very small guilds.

I guess the best way to implement this is if the guild leader can choose whether or not to allow this, and for 'untrusted' groups, it would have to be a reciprocal agreement.
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Post #965
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(September 3rd 2012, 05:30 AM)Sparhawk Wrote: Kudos, you've clearly thought this out, and you know the lore. A few points:
1. I think they'd want to sit on this until the factions have been established, which leads to:
2. Even once everyone's got comfy, I think this could *possibly* still lead to more fighting internally than between factions.
3. It could also mean that guilds become very insular, with people only having a large number of very small guilds.

I guess the best way to implement this is if the guild leader can choose whether or not to allow this, and for 'untrusted' groups, it would have to be a reciprocal agreement.

Thank you, I do have a lot of time to think. This is just a general framework of an idea that would need tweaking. In guilds for example, perhaps having treachery allowed only within each rank; only leaders may betray other leaders, while the freshly inducted rabble can only squabble amongst themselves, to be toggled as you say at the guildmaster's discretion. In order to be taken seriously it should probably have built-in consequences for both the killer and the killed, like maybe a loss of rank for the killed, and some kind of marked traitor status/debuff or something for the killer, if only to avoid people killing each other just for shits n giggles. Perhaps challenging someone to a duel would nullify the traitor's mark, but still force some penalty for the loser. The idea definitely would require a lot more thinking out, if it's worth the effort. At best this would likely be a function only on more pvp-dedicated servers, but even there it might be seen as too big a distraction from the RvR.

Edit: with regards to the untrusted groups system,, I had mainly dreamed that up as a potential function of the developer-built 'guilds' as we know them from the single player games; hard coded mini-factions that players would ally themselves to for access to their questlines. The possibility of allowing this between player made guilds may be a bit ambitious, but it is an intriguing idea i had not considered.
This post was last modified: September 3rd 2012, 08:22 PM by confusion
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Post #1036
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This is just my take from playing various MMOs over the years, but the best way to discourage a certain playing behavior is to punish it. In this case, the scenario you are referring to would be griefing and gank squads. It is this kind of player behavior that makes FFA PvP unruly, chaotic, and generally not fun.

The only way to really avoid this kind of behavior which is inevitable is to punish it for happening. In real life, players could get arrested, serve a jail sentence, or perhaps even be executed for their crimes against society. The only way to really have such a player-driven society without chaos is to place in real world elements and rules to curb how players act.

Player behavior would change significantly if one were to be punished harshly for taking actions against a fellow faction player. An example of this in Darkfall Online was faction-oriented cities would become hostile to any traitorous members and would kill on sight.

In order to avoid bad behavior from other factions, the easiest way to maintain order would be to make travel to opposing territories, long, grueling, and ultimately difficult. Players would have to go to a lot of effort to get to enemy territory, and even then they would be at risk of being killed by NPC guards as they would attack the opposing faction on sight.

Ultimately ZOS would never want to do something like this as they want to solely focus their PvP in Cyrodiil in the RvR. This is really a double-edged sword as the fighting will ultimately be much more concentrated in Cyrodiil, however PvP will feel less organic and more regulated as a result.

What I would really want in a TES MMO is a similar experience to that in the single player games. That being that I am always at risk of being attacked, whether from a highway man, an assassin sent to kill me, a guard looking to detain me, or an enemy faction member looking to slay me.

I suppose I'll have to be content with PvP only really being in Cyrodiil though.
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Post #1049
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(September 4th 2012, 02:24 PM)Redguard King Wrote: What I would really want in a TES MMO is a similar experience to that in the single player games. That being that I am always at risk of being attacked, whether from a highway man, an assassin sent to kill me, a guard looking to detain me, or an enemy faction member looking to slay me.

I can't think of any reason why TESO can't mimick that part of the SP experience - once you remember that was all PvE encounters in the SP game :P

Well, ok I *can* think of one reason: some won't like it and will complain and/or leave if they're getting randomly jumped too often in towns, even if it's by an AI mob. (Though oddly, I suspect scripted 'ambushes' as part of a questline would be tolerated by those same people.)
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Post #1087
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(September 5th 2012, 04:32 AM)Venitas the Heretic Wrote:
(September 4th 2012, 02:24 PM)Redguard King Wrote: What I would really want in a TES MMO is a similar experience to that in the single player games. That being that I am always at risk of being attacked, whether from a highway man, an assassin sent to kill me, a guard looking to detain me, or an enemy faction member looking to slay me.

I can't think of any reason why TESO can't mimick that part of the SP experience - once you remember that was all PvE encounters in the SP game :P

Well, ok I *can* think of one reason: some won't like it and will complain and/or leave if they're getting randomly jumped too often in towns, even if it's by an AI mob. (Though oddly, I suspect scripted 'ambushes' as part of a questline would be tolerated by those same people.)

Certainly that feeling of uncertainty and unpredictability has become a staple of the SP TES games. But when you add the equation of thousands of other players around you also questing, it complicates matters.

When I PvE in ESO, I definitely want to have that similar sense of feeling that the world is dynamic and it reacts to me. At the same time I realize there are limitations to how much ZOS. can curb the experience in a massively multiplayer environment. So they will likely compromise in certain areas and make use of instancing for that personal effect.

It's really going to be interesting to see how the PvE experience turns out. Will it be more like one's standard MMO where one just comes across random mobs in the world and kills a certain number to complete a quest? Or is ZOS stretching the scope to have a much more TES feel with wonder, exploration, and danger as the essential model?
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