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Will PvP Build's be Predictable?


Started by Ewan
Post #60057
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I was not worried before, but now, I am, kinda... a bit.

This is completely speculation and may or may not be my own delusion, but a single character with specific weapon will haw 3x5(class) + 2x5(guild) + 1x5(weapon) + 1x5(Disease : /, rly?) + 1(armor) + 2x5(PvP) = 46 Active ability's to chose from, that is assuming that racial wont provide any game breaking active ability's.
We can slot 5 of those.
Wont game be a bit predictable? Or is it just non-sens, in therms like this: i see a guy in PvP with 2h sword, and just from that i can speculate which ability he will haw, taking into account most effective and used build around the internet. Sure we will haw 2th lodout, but i bet there will be guides and reasons that predetermine best 2 weapon combination, so i dont consider this as deciding factor. Then again we can "morph" this 46 ability's and end up with possibility of hawing 92 of, how should i say this, ability "effects"... but i dont think the mechanic of the ability will change that much, then again i could be wrong.
What i am trying to say, lets not be naive, this ability's wont be so balance that we can build in any way that we want. Sure you can find one or another player who does weird build that that has random elements, but will it be as effective.
Now why am i rambling like this with too much text, i bet you guys saying get to the point. Well the point is, during PvP in most games when you fight some one 80% of the time you know there "spell" rotation, or combo if you want to call it like that, and you can predict what spell they will use next, good example: in WoW you fight vs Shaman there is 90% chance he will use Frost Shock on you first and then saves Nature shock for interrupt, that is when cd is rdy. With dodge block remove CC mechanic, wont avoiding enemy "fire", for skilled player, be somthin simple? Well sure there is need for skill to know when to use dodge when to save stamina/mana, when to sprint out of Death Zones, but thats not the point, the point is how "different" build's will be between 2000 "skilled" players in Cyrodill, will there be counterbuilds? somthin like my build suks vs NPC or random guy, but extremely effective vs most popular build, how will this effect competitive play?

Since 75% of the time in MMO i was PvE player, and only did PvP for fun, i am curious to know what you guys think.
This post was last modified: April 15th 2013, 10:47 AM by Najla
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Post #60065
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I can hardly imagine any predictability in the setup with deck building. We can only assume that guy with 2h weapon will have some mobility skills, but until he pull you with Fiery Chain or appears behind you with Bolt Escape - you probably wont even know what class he is playing, beyond that people can have literally anything on their skill bars

Only thing you would be able to guess with 33% accuracy is ultimate abilities, those we have seen only in class lines, but that might change too

Second half of your post doesnt make any sense in ESO, its not cooldown mmo so there is no point in comparing it to such games.


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Post #60073
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That was just an example that came to my mind, ofc i know there wont be cd, but that dose not change the fact some combination are predictable, or not, >_> and that is my question.
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Post #60077
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the only prediction we made so far is that single target nuking will be more competetive than AoE spamming.
But i realy wouldnt try to predict the meta just yet.
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Post #60087
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I'm as curious as you to see how this will all play out. Even if the skill bar is more "deck building" as Rage put it that means there will be quite a few skills that hardly anyone uses (just as there are cards in Magic the Gathering that most people avoid). It will be interesting to see if the skills are varied enough for many unique builds or that they will end up being sifted down to only a few viable builds.


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Post #60091
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I can see group combos being a major thing with everyone in pretty much every scenario. I don't see many "One person takes the field" type battles really. Which isn't a bad thing, but in that sense the only thing that will become predictable is the group abilities people do. . because they'll probably be the ones you really notice.

As sordak said tho, shouldn't predict metas this early in time. . would wait for stress tests in that regard. . maybe even Open Beta (if they have it).


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Post #60099
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I'm sure there will be plenty of people that stick to the Holy Trinity of PvP builds. It can be more simple and it's what they know. But with ESO I think you should expect to see more hybrids than what you may be used to seeing in other MMOs. And hybrids that will be just as efficient in PvP. This applies to skills as well as what is equipped.

I wouldn't assume that guy with Heavy Armor and 2h sword will just have only combat perks/abilities slotted. He could swap the sword for a stave and enchanted shield and then things could get more interesting. Surprise, you just got conned!


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Post #60117
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well not hybrids in the sense of a stupid mashup.
A Heavy armor sorcerer with a bow will not be that for the sake of beeing a hybrid.
But for having figured out a combo that works realy well.

Im thinking about rolling a DK in medium armor. Simply because i realized that with Magma armor i do not need the extra protection, but i do need movespeed to close the distance in the limited time i have.
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Post #60200
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Honestly I don't think it's worth trying to predict, because combat in this game doesn't revolve around rotations and abilities. Player skill is more important. @soup2DIE4 I completely agree. People will probabaly stick with what they know and build their character around that, but the freedom of the skill trees will definitely allow for viable hybrid builds. Excellent example, too. While yeah I can see the challenge of balancing so many skills, and most likely there will be those skills no one uses, but I trust ZOS will try and make it as close to balanced as possible. It * should* be close enough to make some interesting hybrids work fine.


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Post #60260
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I would say your correct in most games, but I feel TESO will break that. Lets say in PVP you see that 2hand sword enemy....

He is wearing heavy armor, classic toe to toe fighter. this set up will prob be similar to others but im sure 1 abilitiy and passives will most likely be different.
He could be wearing med armor because he is more of the sneaky positional fighter, So he will prob have different abilities / attacks.
He could be a sorc and tries to wear you down from range before engaging in melee, This would also prob have different abilities / attack set up.

So lets say we do assume the build will be the same as others that have the exact same character, that still means they have to pick the same class (4), same armor (3), and same weapon (6?) so I thinks that's like 1 out of 72 people being the same as you with just the MAIN set ups. that's basically like 72 classes in other games. But yes some will be much more popular than others like Dragon Knight, 2hand, heavy armor. But even with that character there will likely be atleast 1 skill or ability different from another player doing that build. Also remember a lot o people will mix and match armor types further being different.
This post was last modified: April 16th 2013, 12:55 AM by Pirhana7








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Post #60265
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Don't mix hybrids with specs. A heavy armored bow sorcerer isn't a hybrid, its a spec. It only has 1 or 2 clear lines of focus. Now Heavy armored healing staff sorc is a hybrid, as it clearly has too many lines of focus to call it a specialized / specific character.

And if people decide to stick to their trinities in PvP, I'll certainly let them. But one can imagine Spec groups being a ton more efficient, especially if they are placed into the environment the spec group is supposed to be at.

Take massive open field, the enemy group has 1 healer, 2 "damage dealers" and 1 "tank". The Spec group has mobility regen bow characters based on utility (CC's). Which one is more likely to win in theory? The ranged nukers with inbuilt regens & tons of snares as opposed to a group that appears to be viable in PvE?

As Sordak stated, metagame isn't really up for discussion yet. But there are few universal rules that apply here as well.

Regarding the predictability of builds. Since they are all freeform classes (pick a class, build it as you like), some people will follow the standard templates ("Hey, I want to be an assassin / mage / warrior") But most will find the abilities that are in synergy together, and start building their specs that sound wild on paper, but skill-wise they sound effective. Its really how you build your character; And as I've stated multiple times on these forums: Best specs come from you choosing your playstyle, and creating the character around it, as opposed to you building a character and choosing the playstyle according to your character.

That being said, I'm fairly sure some common specs will rise, but you will most likely still meet more than enough times characters that make you look at them going "Well that certainly is an interesting build."

But after seeing the leaked skills, I started theorycrafting with Sordak, and we quickly noticed you break your characters standard pattern quite fast. As he mentioned his MA DK, which could skip the HA (one would assume heavy armor is essential to melee range in PvP) with correct skills, allowing him to focus his armor-choice to more mobility / damage oriented (and no, even with MA he doesnt need the stealth tree, as that only drains passives).

Then there was my bow character, I noticed Sorcerer had an ultimate that improves the regular attacks at the cost of finesse (So I am to assume this is a fair nuke), with this I could have good nuke for my bow, and everything else was survivability & utilities that promote the character plus one secondary nuke if theres no finesse available.

I can't wait for people to get their hands on the game and the final skills to see what kind of builds get theorycrafted.
This post was last modified: April 16th 2013, 01:51 AM by Nehemia


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Post #60267
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finesse?
Wasnt there also one based on improving weapon damage on mana?
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Post #60269
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(April 16th 2013, 01:57 AM)Sordak Wrote: finesse?
Wasnt there also one based on improving weapon damage on mana?

I need to check on that.

"Edit: 125 ultimate, No cooldown, While toggled: Light and heavy attacks are replaced with empowered versions that cost ultimate."
This post was last modified: April 16th 2013, 02:14 AM by Nehemia


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Post #60271
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stupid wording "that cost ultimate"
but ok i see that. so basically its a steroid spell to throw when you got high finesse and dont care to spend it on an ult.
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Post #60296
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All of you provide appealing arguments that make me feel more at ease. The reason that i started this tread is because when i played TSW, which is highly "free form" build system, there was always a "cookie cuter" build that was easy to use so most of people always lean to it, and essentially when you see some guy with a sword you already knew his build. But since ESO has more choices the TSW when it comes to character building, i am hoping this "problem" wont be an issue.
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